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Market politics

Discussion in 'TSLA Investor Discussions' started by Lessmog, Feb 3, 2018.

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  1. Unpilot

    Unpilot Active Member

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    I for one don't have hate for the man I have pity. The hate is for the destructive policy's.

    Stating climate change is a hoax and having a policy of getting coal miners back to work is destructive.
    Lost opportunity in embracing clean energy is destructive.

    You stated before your admiration for his ability to make a deal. If your honest this must stem from his book and reality TV show.
    Well the book's real author has come forward and has not been very kind with his words.

    I think we all want to be happy and from what I see trump is one of the most unhappy person I have seen.
     
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  2. JRP3

    JRP3 Hyperactive Member

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    It's well earned, if you actually pay attention to reality.
    Anther example of his great character
    Donald Trump 'Miffed' That Events Honoring George H.W. Bush Were About George H.W. Bush, Not Him, NYT Reports
     
  3. Heart Land

    Heart Land Member

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    I do not pay attention to the same publications that have written false articles about Tesla. How is one to really know what is accurate and inaccurate? The NYT is one of the worst.

    I have to admit that I did not vote for Trump because I believed all the negative press about him. Even though I am in the Midwest, I live in a location that is largely Democrat and so it is easy to believe all the negative headlines and rumors. Some may have some merit, but largely they are written with a bias.

    I changed my viewpoint once I stopped watching the news and focused on interviews and unedited events. This was my way of bypassing the bias. It was eye opening. I also have the advantage of traveling through the Midwest and talking to a lot of working class people. They are smart people and some of the best people you can meet, but have been put down because they are not represented in the press and are not understood. Trump was able to tap into that.

    The hate and anger that is spilled, by some, because of a different political view is disappointing. I have already noticed that many here have put me in a box of being stupid or misinformed. I mean how else could somebody support him??? Like I said, if things do not work out I will post that I was wrong. So I will be rooting for success.
     
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  4. Intl Professor

    Intl Professor Active Member

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    Actually, I don't hate Trump, I pity him. At core he is so insecure he has to be propped up with praise daily. What a miserable life he has, one consumed with fear which he must share with all. I hate the consequences of his actions, however, and if you were right about your assumption an equitable deal with China is possible, then you are correct in your assessment of the consequences for the economy and the market. However, I have loaded my agreement with a qualification, "equitable."

    China is a great power. Playing with Korea is another matter. (Eventually Moon and Kim will do an end run around the US with a separate peace deal. Then what is the US military going to do?) With a great power, think bullies. In a fight one must lose or both will. China has to yield in the face of US military power as things stand now, but in time the Chinese military's hand is strengthened in their battle of the budget. But the US will eventually lose in the face of Chinese economic power unless it is treated as an equal. Why?

    On climate change China is on the right track, we are not. Critics are right it is probably because of the stale air there, but for whatever reason they are taking the right steps, including ceding to Tesla ownership of Gig 3.0, while Trump is beating GM with the subsidy club.

    I wish I could share your optimism on the facts. Eventually we will know. Facts will arbitrate disputes, not idle hope. I am a skeptic. You seem to be a believer in your support of Trump. I'm indifferent to your beliefs as I have learned the hard way the only person I can change is myself. I think it is Jose Ortega y Gasset who has said something to the effect: "people are wrong about skeptics. It is not that they believe nothing, they believe practically everything." I do not conflate skepticism with hate but do commit the Christian sin of calling bullies out by name in recent posts here.
     
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  5. Intl Professor

    Intl Professor Active Member

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    For many years I've bored thousands of students with my pet way to judge a person's intelligence: how quickly they change their minds in the face of subsequent developments. Obviously by this standard you are intelligent. Obviously I would not measure yours against others for what my black friends call "the quickness." That would be a Trumpian debate over mental penis length. Can you imagine the hilarious retort by either or both Krugerrand or KarenrRei? I shudder with imagination.
     
  6. JRP3

    JRP3 Hyperactive Member

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    That's shocking since his interviews and actions do not show him to be a rational or intelligent individual, nor do the facts of his history. That you could be encouraged by his interviews is rather frightening. I of course did not vote for him but I held out some hope he might not be as bad as he appeared and would maybe rise to the occasion. In fact he has lowered.
     
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  7. Intl Professor

    Intl Professor Active Member

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    Also a new thought for me. Trump has lowered the bar, experience wise, for Democratic candidates. That could be good or disastrous, as it was in 2016 for Reep candidates.
     
  8. traxila

    traxila Member

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    Do the ends justify the means always or just when heads of state are involved?
     
  9. Unpilot

    Unpilot Active Member

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    Please share some examples of his deal making or intelligence?
     
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  10. Heart Land

    Heart Land Member

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    Trump took over his dad’s business in his mid-twenties and quickly grew the business. By the time he was in his mid-30s he was a billionaire. He negotiated the Trump Tower in Manhattan when he was in his early 30s. Manhattan was considered inner city NYC at the time, and was not nearly what it is today. Trump at a very young age was able to realize the investment potential of Manhattan and be able to make a great deal for his company to develop what is still one of the most well know pieces of real estate in the world. He was a savant and this is why all the claims that he is only rich because of his dad have no merit to me.

    I think the best interviews are of Trump before he ran for president. The tone changed once he ran. I think earlier the better. Here is one when he was only 34 where ironically he spoke about politics and potential for running for president.
     
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  11. wdolson

    wdolson Supporting Member

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    First off I am in the same camp as some others who have spoken up. I don't really hate anyone, though I may hate someone's actions or take issue with their ideas.

    Going by the old "by their acts you show know them" I have educated myself on who Donald Trump really is. His persona is a master deal maker and genius businessman, but in reality he blew his inheritance, and it appears he turned to organized crime and money laundering to finance his lifestyle from there.

    I have had an amateur's interest in Psychology for most of my life and my SO has both a masters in Psych as well as a JD equivalent. She both runs a counseling agency for domestic violence perpetrators and practices law. Her mother had a Borderline Personality Disorder and her ex's brother had an Antisocial Personality Disorder. She's taken a special interest in personality disorders (though she rarely deals with the professionally).

    I also had a friend who unfortunately died just before the 2016 election who was a Psychiatrist and worked in mental hospitals most of his professional life. Usually the local county hospital where the police take the mental cases. He saw just about every mental illness imaginable.

    My SO, my friend, and everything I have ever read myself about personality disorders screams that Donald Trump is a textbook case of Narcissistic Personality Disorder and specifically a sub-type which is called a Malignant Narcissist. Malignant Narcissists differ from NPD in that they have a sadistic streak on top of the NPD. One Psych professor who teaches mental illness classes said he started using Donald Trump videos to illustrate NPD traits because Trump is such a perfect example.

    Donald Trump's track record as a deal maker is pathetic. He blusters a lot, but in the end he gets taken by people much better at making deals. Since he came on the political scene in a big way in 2015, investigators have been digging into every one of his business deals and mostly he's been making money from money laundering. It's a different kind of money laundering than what we're commonly used to which is the Breaking Bad kind of money laundering of cash from drug sales.

    In places like Russia, there is a relative handful of gangsters that run the country. They rip off the wealth of the country to line their pockets. But they want to get this money out of the country and hidden overseas. Their primary game is to deposit their money in a bank in Russia, then someone who is working with them in another country puts up for sale something at an inflated price and they buy that thing at that price using the money they deposited in Moscow. They hold onto that asset for a few years, then sell it for whatever they can get for it and deposits the money in some account offshore from Moscow.

    Their partner in this deal makes money from the over-inflated price, but also makes money with loans given by the corrupt bank that just never seem to get paid back.

    All the evidence points to almost all of Trump's business income for the last 20 years has been as the American end of this money pipeline.

    Trump's foreign policy as president has been horribly mismanaged. His "deals" are at best small improvements, but most have been utter failures. He met with Kim Jong-Un and made a big deal about coming to a great deal. In reality the North Korean dictator played him giving some nods to some of the things Trump said, went home and destroyed a facility that had already been damaged beyond repair, then doubled down on his nuclear program.

    Trump made a big deal about tearing up NAFTA and rewriting it, but in reality that's not what the new agreement is. It's a few relatively minor tweaks to NAFTA, almost all in the automotive sector, and leaves the original agreement largely unchanged.

    Trump's policy with China has been an utter disaster. The tariffs are a tax on Americans, not on China. It raises prices on goods imported to the US, and it's doing very little to spur domestic production because there isn't enough domestic production left to spool up. China has retaliated with tariffs on American goods which has almost shut down those exports. As a result the trade deficit with China is at an all time high. Trump made a big deal about his trade war deal with China, but if you actually read the Chinese statements about Trump's G-20 meeting, the Chinese take away from the talk was very different and very little has changed.

    The trade war has hit the company I work for. They make test instruments for the integrated circuit industry and 1/2 their business is in China. They make everything here in the US and thanks to the trade war, most companies are doing what companies always do when things are uncertain, they have stopped capital spending. They have laid off a bunch of people and cut me back to 4 days a week. I don't know if they will still be in business in 2020 if this continues.

    On the legislative front the Republicans have had both branches of government and the presidency for two years. Something that rarely happens. Normally when that happens, the party in power rams through some substantive legislation, but the Republicans have been an utter failure at getting anything through except a massive tax bill that has already blown up the deficit and primarily gives money to people who don't need any more at the expense of the rest of us. That and packing the courts with conservative judges, some wildly unqualified, is about the only thing that have to show for their lock on power.

    Donald Trump has one talent: he's a very good sales person to a certain type of person. He's also been very, very lucky up to now he hasn't been caught in any of his crimes. And Mueller has made it clear in his latest sentencing memo that he has Donald Trump for multiple crimes now and he'd be in custody today if he wasn't president.

    Conservative media and the Republicans have crafted a fluid reality where everything is constantly changing. They have been making up BS stories and wildly exaggerating others about Democrats for 25 years and none of those wild stories have proven to have much truth. They have launched bogus probes that turned up little or nothing like Whitewater, Benghazi-gate, etc.

    Kenneth Starr investigated the Clintons for most of Bill Clinton's 8 years in office. There were all sorts of wild rumors floated in conservative media and Starr looked at everything. He got a whole lot of nothing, but the conservative media left a lot of Americans thinking Clinton got away with it. That is a witch hunt.

    For most of Obama's second term, a House committee investigated Hillary Clinton's role in the unfortunately loss of life at the Benghazi US consulate. They ignored the fact that the state department had asked Congress for more money for embassy and consulate security in Libya, but the Republicans had refused to give it. Instead they spun stories about some mythical rescue mission that could have been put together in Italy and flown out the ambassador if not for Hillary wanting him dead or something. They came up with nothing and quietly dropped the whole investigation when Hillary lost. Another witch hunt.

    Because of all this crying wolf, the true believers on the right think that there are many corrupt people on the left who are managing to get away with crimes because of some liberal cabal in the DOJ or something. Among independents who are mostly independent because they don't like either party, these fake crisis leave them with the boy who cried wolf syndrome. So when a real scandal comes up with real evidence of bad doing by Republicans, it's written off as the liberals just going after Republicans like the Republicans did to the Democrats.

    But this time there is a wolf. A really big one.

    The Mueller investigation has been cast in right wing media as a liberal witch hunt, but every principle in the investigation is either deliberately lifelong apolitical (like James Comey) or a lifelong Republicans (like Mueller and Rosenstein). Mueller has been at the Trump-Russia investigation less time than most modern investigations and unlike bogus investigations of Democrats, Mueller is finding a staggering collection of crimes.

    The crimes connected to Trump, his businesses, and his campaign are absolutely nothing like Benghazi, Whitewater, Obama being a secret Kenyan, or Hillary's emails. This is real and it's been hiding in plain sight for 30+ years.

    For those writing off the Trump scandals as just the Democrats getting payback are woefully under informed and are playing right into the narrative the conservative media wants you to believe.

    As far as I've seen from following the facts the current president of the United States is a criminal. He has been involved in criminal activity for decades and he's still involved in criminal activity. He is mentally ill, not very bright, and very toxic to the institutions of this country.

    I still don't hate him because I don't really hate people. I am very, very concerned about the future of this country. The rule of law is thus far holding, but the Constitution is threatened and if it breaks, the US as it has existed for the last 240 years will be gone. One party, the Republican party has become hopelessly corrupt. The Democrats are far from perfect. There are Democratic politicians in prison today, but the Democrats are not guilty of the systematic corruption of the Republican party. The elected Republicans are supporting a corrupt president out of fear and greed.

    The conservative media beat up the rest of the media for the last 2 decades claiming they were too liberal. So they bent over backwards to be "fair" to both sides. It helped create a narrative that both sides were equally wrong, but that is not true at all. The distortion of facts, abusive behavior towards opponents, corrupting the system to favor them, etc. has been far, far worse on the right than the left. There has been some on the left, but the split is 80-20 or even 90-10.

    And all this comes from someone who grew up in a very Republican household and really is an independent now. I've been voting Democratic since GW Bush because one party has become the Wonderland party living in a reality that only has some tangential relationship to the facts. I have my issues with the Democrats, but they are the only adults left in the room.
     
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  12. neroden

    neroden Model S Owner and Frustrated Tesla Fan

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    Just gonna note one thing. Trump probably isn't a billionaire now... And he definitely wasn't when he was 30. He lied to get on the Forbes list. This is documented.

    Trump Allegedly Lied About His Wealth to Get on the Forbes 400 List in the 1980s

    Like the fake Time cover he likes to put in his golf clubs. It is pathetic.

    The real problem is that the Republican Party has become such a cult that it is following this deranged man.
     
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  13. Unpilot

    Unpilot Active Member

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    This interview has him advocating the very thing he ran away from. Military service. Remember his bone spurs the ones he cant remember which foot it was on. So he acts tough but runs away from a fight.
     
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  14. JRP3

    JRP3 Hyperactive Member

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    Back in reality:

    This Is How Donald Trump Actually Got Rich
     
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  15. JRP3

    JRP3 Hyperactive Member

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    More recently

    For first time, prosecutors connect Trump to a federal crime
     
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  16. Oil4AsphaultOnly

    Oil4AsphaultOnly Active Member

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    This is a false equivalence. The others have provided pretty good proof to support their positions, so I'll leave that alone and just address this one point.

    All the FUD articles against Tesla have taken known facts and drawn false conclusions off of them. The real facts in those hit pieces were undeniable, it was simply the conclusions that were wrong. The facts against Trump are irrefutable, regardless of what conclusions you wish to draw. His only defense has been "facts" of his own making, which are easily proven to be fabricated.

    Can you see the difference? Can you see how we can disparage the same media, yet draw different conclusions about the subjects of their ire? Absolutely start with the facts, but make sure you're really looking at facts and not someone's opinions, which they've claimed as fact.
     
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  17. Heart Land

    Heart Land Member

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    The NYT published a review on the Model S stating the car had broken down during one of their test runs. Tesla accessed the data log to prove it was false and wrote a blog post about it. This was made up. Recently the WSJ published an article on their front page claiming the FBI was closing in on Tesla. Elon spoke about it in his Recode podcast and stated it was utterly false. He also spoke about how he has lost a lot of regard for the press because of their falsehoods. I recommend listening to that podcast. The press makes things up. Also, Washington makes things up.

    I can find dozens upon dozens of interviews and articles crediting Trump with building a real estate empire. Then all of a sudden he decides to run for president and there are articles that downplay his accomplishments. These articles are not foreign to me. I am surrounded by the negativity. But can someone find an article or interview that makes these inheritance claims BEFORE he announced he was running for president? I will be much more inclined to believe it, if it is published prior to his announcement. Also, any article detailing his corruption BEFORE he decided to run for president would be an interesting read.
     
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  18. JRP3

    JRP3 Hyperactive Member

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    Did you even read the article I posted? You are literally ignoring facts because they don't fit your bias.

    There is plenty of timely evidence as to the type of person he was but I guess no amount of proof is going to penetrate your delusion at this point.
     
  19. EVNow

    EVNow Well-Known Member

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    Can you find any articles describing Harvey Weinstein's sexual abuse before the scandal broke out ? That doesn't make the accusations any less believable.

    When someone is not running for president, there is no incentive for a lot of journalists to dig deep into a private businessman.

    A good example is the work of WP journalist who started asking every charitable organization whether Trump Foundation had given them any money. No way someone would do that for a goofy businessman, reality TV star.
     
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  20. Oil4AsphaultOnly

    Oil4AsphaultOnly Active Member

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    I read the Broder piece, as well as the WSJ piece. Ignore the title and read the details in the article. Broder was selective in choosing which advice to follow, and he deliberately choose to skip the nearest super charger "on Tesla's advice" to try to stretch for the further one. The car did run out of charge, but only because he wasted time and energy "trying to find the charger". The WSJ article was a repeat of an FBI request for info from months before. The details were in there, but were deliberately written to hide that. You can spot the facts and see how they were presented to support the conclusion.

    That's not fabricating facts on the same level as Trump's facts, which many are just outright lies.
     
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