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ok, I'll bite. While there are plenty of reasons to support Health Care for All, what part of the pandemic makes it so? (The feds have already guaranteed payment to the uninsured. Several of the big insurers have already agreed to cover COVID treatment at no copay. Corporations are covering their employees for now. Those laid off can join their state's ACA plan....)

What am I missing?
 
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ok, I'll bite. While there are plenty of reasons to support Health Care for All, what part of the pandemic makes it so? (The feds have already guaranteed payment to the uninsured. Several of the big insurers have already agreed to cover COVID treatment at no copay. Corporations are covering their employees for now. Those laid off can join their state's ACA plan....)

What am I missing?
How about you go to the ER, they check you out and send you home. Not enough symptoms to get the Covid check. Whole thing costs what $1000 or $2000 if they did a blood test.
I've done the same thing here in Norway, and there was a co-pay at the ER, I think it was $12 or $15 or maybe even $17. It was so little I can't remember. (And if you hit copays over $230 per year, everything else is free that year) That's how a fairly well functioning public option work.
 
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How about you go to the ER, they check you out and send you home. Not enough symptoms to get the Covid check. Whole thing costs what $1000 or $2000 if they did a blood test.

Possible, but unlikely right now since folks are getting triaged pretty quickly. Most local hospitals won't even let you in the door if you have COVID symptoms. You have to call (from home or your car) to speak to a nurse/PA/other provider and unless you meet the CDC definition of testable, you are sent home and told to contact your primary care provider. If you want, they will offer to swab for the flu (for a nice fee), but that is only after they tell you to contact your primary care physician first.

But this is no different than any other inappropriate ER use. Almost always a bad idea -- there are sick people in hospitals! (And just bcos you want a test doesn't mean that you deserve one.)
 
Possible, but unlikely right now since folks are getting triaged pretty quickly. Most local hospitals won't even let you in the door if you have COVID symptoms. You have to call (from home or your car) to speak to a nurse/PA/other provider and unless you meet the CDC definition of testable, you are sent home and told to contact your primary care provider. If you want, they will offer to swab for the flu (for a nice fee), but that is only after they tell you to contact your primary care physician first.

But this is no different than any other inappropriate ER use. Almost always a bad idea -- there are sick people in hospitals! (And just bcos you want a test doesn't mean that you deserve one.)

So who's your PCP, when your company went under and can't afford cobra or ACA? The safety nets only work if you don't fall through the cracks. There shouldn't be any cracks when people's lives and livelihoods are on the line.
 
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So who's your PCP, when your company went under and can't afford cobra or ACA? The safety nets only work if you don't fall through the cracks. There shouldn't be any cracks when people's lives and livelihoods are on the line.
Yeah and when you are sick is not the right time to check if the ER is covered or not. Let's just say I feel our system is vastly superior even though it has it's minor issues as well. I've used our ER as my "PCP" when it was on a holiday or weekend and I felt it couldn't wait until monday. Yes I waited sometimes 20 minutes, sometimes 2-3 hours but I got good care and the cost was in the $10-$20 range. When everyone is panicking for a good or bad reason you want the costs to be minimal and everyone to get decent treatment.
Though this is fairly wildly OT so I'll stop now.
 
When you're sick is exactly the time to check if the ER is covered. When you've severed a limb is exactly when you don't have the time to see if the ER is covered.

If you're running a high fever, nauseous, delirious, and or suffering from abdominal pain, you're in no condition to check if the ER is covered. Sorry, but there are FAR MORE times when you're "sick" than when you've severed or broken a limb.
 
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The concept I was trying to convey is that the whole idea that you need to check if the ER is covered is a completely alien idea for most Europeans. If things are bad enough you need to go to the ER then that should be your focus. And keep in mind you can call to the ER and a nurse will listen to your symptoms and either tell you to take an asparin and come down if it gets worse or come down now or even call you an ambulance if it sounds very serious. That removes some of the unnecissary traffic as well, so when you go down it's usually pretty uncomfortable or serious. How is this relevant to the market, loosing your job is stressfull enough, but also loosing health coverage is brutal. In most of Europe most health issues are covered regardless of job status, though there are wierd issues as well. Like in Norway dental is covered until 18 years and then you're mostly on your own.
 
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I won't be surprised if Trump outflanks Biden on the left by borrowing some Bernie ideas (may be giving them his own names)
- Student debt cancellation
- Medicare for All

He doesn't have to implement after getting re-elected. Just outflanking Biden on these will scramble the race a bit. Just like he outflanked Hillary on trade issues in '16.
 
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I won't be surprised if Trump outflanks Biden on the left by borrowing some Bernie ideas (may be giving them his own names)
- Student debt cancellation
- Medicare for All

He doesn't have to implement after getting re-elected. Just outflanking Biden on these will scramble the race a bit. Just like he outflanked Hillary on trade issues in '16.

He already has on healthcare. Medicare for those recently uninsured due to job loss.

Uninsured patients: Trump administration will reimburse hospitals for Covid treatment - CNNPolitics

All while Biden is still saying to open the ACA exchanges with all the mess associated with it.
 
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If you're running a high fever, nauseous, delirious, and or suffering from abdominal pain, you're in no condition to check if the ER is covered. Sorry, but there are FAR MORE times when you're "sick" than when you've severed or broken a limb.

Well then you probably waited too long and should have seen your primary care doctor before letting it escalate to an emergency.
 
Well then you probably waited too long and should have seen your primary care doctor before letting it escalate to an emergency.

Please go back up a few exchanges and see how this last reply shows that you've completely missed the point.

Edit: And just as a summary, this situation is called "falling into the pocket" and happens on a daily basis to real people and is a travesty for it to even happen AT ALL! Critics of medicare for all always cite the government inefficiencies, but never recognize the human health costs (in addition to inefficiencies) of the current system.

Edit 2: Changed "Proponents against" to "critics of", because the former made sense in my head but is too easily misunderstood.
 
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I won't be surprised if Trump outflanks Biden on the left by borrowing some Bernie ideas (may be giving them his own names)
- Student debt cancellation
- Medicare for All

He doesn't have to implement after getting re-elected. Just outflanking Biden on these will scramble the race a bit. Just like he outflanked Hillary on trade issues in '16.

And Biden has Trump massively outflanked on compassion. Trump brags about his TV ratings while Biden gives heartfelt concern for those who have lost loved ones. These times are at least as scary as the early days of the Great Depression. Not only has the economy crashed hard, but there is a virus loose that isn't fully understood that is the most lethal in living memory (for all people under 100).

FDR was incredibly popular because he could talk to people and calm them. His fireside chats were one of his most effective tools to keep his voters in his camp.

Biden isn't as eloquent a speaker as FDR, but he has the same ability to express compassion and caring. Listening to Biden people may feel this is still a scary world, but the guy in charge understands it's scary and is doing everything possible to fix the problem.

Trump has no clue how to even fake compassion. It's an alien notion to him. Trump only cares about one person and his entire life is focused on that one person: himself. It's the nature of malignant narcissism.

Trump's response to the COVID-19 pandemic has been worse than GW's response to Katrina and there is no sign it's going to improve.

There is a lot of talk in the media today that COVID-19 is peaking or beginning to decline, but we're just at the top of the first drop on the roller coaster. Some people are thinking it will go away now but may be back this fall. There is a good chance we'll see a drop and it will be back next month.

The most common infectious diseases we deal with are cold and flu which both tend to be more transmittable in colder weather. I see no signs that COVID-19 follows this pattern. Two of the hardest hit countries are Spain and Italy which are among the warmer countries in Europe. Two hard hit areas in the US are New Orleans and South Florida. Also warm areas.

The only weapon that has worked thus far to slow this down is social distancing. It's worked on the west coast of the US and it's starting to work in the Northeast, but in large parts of the US people are not social distancing. I have a friend who drives a store delivery truck for Walmart in the SE. He goes to a lot of rural towns around the SE. He's paranoid about social distancing because his mother lives part time with him and she's very high risk. But when he goes to the rural stores people keep touching him and don't keep any kind of distance. In fact they are more in his face than before the pandemic.

In the distant past people would escape to the country during pandemics and it would impact the countryside much less than cities because rural areas had little traffic in the best of times and during a pandemic they could isolate better. The last big pandemic, the 1918 flu epidemic turned that on its head. In the US rural areas were impacted much more than cities. The overall death toll in the US was around 0.6%, but in urban areas it was less than 0.1%. In some rural communities the death toll was 90%.

The 1918 flu is now thought to be a return of an 1890 flu outbreak that did mostly hit cities because rural areas were less traveled to then. In urban areas in 1918 the death toll among those over 30 was much lower than those under. The rural areas that had been spared the 1890 flu had no herd immunity.

In this pandemic, we're all like the rural communities of 1918. We have no herd immunity going in. We also have far more traffic in and out of all rural areas than we had in 1918. 1918 had unusually high rural traffic for the early 20th century because of the war and many rural soldiers going off to fight, then returning. But traffic to rural areas on an average day today is far more than seen in even 1918. Most rural towns have some sort of highway now, some are on interstates. Most rural towns have some sort of big retailer like Walmart with trucks hauling in supplies daily. Those that don't have one in the next town and people need to drive to that town. Get a few asymptomatic cases going in a Walmart and the entire county will get infected.

Trump has also done things that have or will tick off his base. My SO was looking at what sailors in the Navy are saying about Trump and the firing of the captain of the Roosevelt. Quite a few rank and file sailors are saying they have switched their vote and most people they know feel the same.

Trump also wants to kill the post office. It's on shaky ground right now because of the trap law the Republicans passed in 2005 that requires the post office to put money in a fund to pay for health care for postal employees that haven't even been born yet. The downturn in the economy has really hit the post office hard and it might run out of money by June. Trump wants to let it die because he wants to kill vote by mail. However in many rural areas the only service that delivers out there is the post office. If it does, or even looks like its going to die, the most rural of voters will have no shipping service of any kind.

Trump also has a number of well funded enemies he didn't have in 2016. There is the Lincoln Project, Bill Krystol's organization, Michael Bloomberg, and Tom Steyer who will all be running ads reminding people of Trump's failures. They have enough money between them to buy up most of the ad time on TV coast to coast in the last month of the election.

Trump won in part in 2016 because he had no record in politics and Hillary had a long history. Trump now has a record and it's full of failures.
 
And Biden has Trump massively outflanked on compassion.
Low bar.

BTW, to people who supported Bernie, Biden looks like Trump-lite with little compassion. Infact Biden has been infamously telling anyone who question him on immigration or student loans or insurance to vote for someone else. That's the extent of his compassion.

Its so ironic - boomers are deciding who the Dem nominee is when Dems rely on younger voters to win. Tough luck they don't like the nominee. But then, Dems decided they would rather have Trump than Bernie - so they'll get Trump.
 
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Low bar.

BTW, to people who supported Bernie, Biden looks like Trump-lite with little compassion. Infact Biden has been infamously telling anyone who question him on immigration or student loans or insurance to vote for someone else. That's the extent of his compassion.

Its so ironic - boomers are deciding who the Dem nominee is when Dems rely on younger voters to win. Tough luck they don't like the nominee. But then, Dems decided they would rather have Trump than Bernie - so they'll get Trump.

The polls are consistently showing Biden ahead of Trump by about 6 points. The few Bernie polls show him ahead of Trump by about 2.

In any case, the popular vote doesn't really matter, it's the electoral college. Bernie's support is much higher in states that are already fairly liberal. If a million Bernie supporters stayed home or voted for Trump in California it would make absolutely no difference.

Back in 2016 Bernie pulled off a surprise primary win in Michigan, and Sanders won Wisconsin by 13. We don't know the Wisconsin results yet, but the last poll showed Biden ahead by 30. Biden plays well in the Midwest. Far better than Hillary did.

What we have on one side are the Bernie bros on Twitter speaking ill of the Democrats vs a lot of data from multiple sources showing that Bernie is both not doing as well as he did in 2016 and he would not do as well as Biden vs Trump.
 
I think Trump has a very good chance of winning. Yes I’m voting for Biden but I wanted Bernie. I voted for Hillary vs Trump but wanted Bernie.

There are many people out there that believe Trump always tells the truth and that everyone else is wrong. I have a dad, two uncles and an aunt who think Trump is still the greatest. True that Hillary and Biden are certainly no saint. But I do think they would handle this COVID situation better and not have to constantly praise themselves.

Im just glad I have Elon, Tesla and SpaceX to follow and a Tesla Model S to drive once this restriction loosens to help me forget about Trump. If they didn’t exist, I’d be pretty bummed about our future right now.

Sadly, I agree with you. The only thing worse than voting for Biden is NOT, since spreading our votes to an independent candidate will only serve to give Trump enough of the votes to win the electoral college. It would be 2016 all over again if that happened.

On the one hand, I wish to participate in change through discussion, but on the other, I think amongst all the earnest people on this thread, we can't seem to agree on how to "fix things"! Everyone has different ideas about what's best for the country, or just their little part of it. 40 years of Bush, Clinton, Bush, Obama, and now Trump has only shown that those who believe in compromise will eventually be marginalized and drowned out. Thus, the "no Trump" stance that some of us (myself included) has taken, is the only solution, effectively proving that compromise isn't a solution! It's oxymoronic that the very people who value compromise, must NOT compromise to get their results.

Perhaps its time to shift more governance back to the states? Limit the federal government's responsibility to national defense and maintaining a common currency? Perhaps we've overlooked the wisdom of the founding fathers for too long and have given the central government too much control? This all came about slowly and organically, so would it even be possible to undo?
 
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