bkp_duke
Well-Known Member
Why don't you just come out and call all white people racists. That's what you are basically implying.
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Why don't you just come out and call all white people racists. That's what you are basically implying.
Xenius
Active Member
I don't think that was being implied at all. But you and the strawman have fun.
All are racist; we think color is different. A nothingburger; not even vegetarian.
bkp_duke
Well-Known Member
Cop out answer. And don't presume to answer for me.
I don't care about someone's color, just how they act. All the white people infiltrating the BLM protests and turning them violent is disgusting, and I fully hope that they are arrested and prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law for their vandalism.
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
If that is actually happening then yes they should be prosecuted, though I'm fairly sure black people are also capable of turning protests violent without the help of whites. As are the police and military, who should also be prosecuted when using uncalled for violence and rounding up peaceful protestors.
bkp_duke
Well-Known Member
Sure they can, but amazing that MLK could march on Washington with 250k plus behind him without any violence.
Look at the social media posts of the people in Portland, Seattle, and Denver actually breaking windows, spray painting, etc. Even behind their masks, they are almost all white.
bkp_duke
Well-Known Member
My standard is I judge people 100% on their actions. I don't care what they look like.
Do you have a different standard than that?
Yes.
I've already coped to racism in my preference for women of color.
You seem to have missed the meaning of the quote. I didn't single you out but made a universal statement without mentioning outlyers, which you are. Apologies. You singled me out.
I'm not hypersensitive to criticism. You cannot indulge such in the debates of academia. Your allegation my universal racism is a cop out is, of course, correct. The whole point of moderating disputes is to throw oil on the waters, to coin a phrase. /s As George Lakoff recommends, reframing the debate is the name of the game in successful negotiations, also recommended by a popular book on negotiations by a prof. at Harvard B School https://www.pon.harvard.edu/shop/negotiating-the-impossible/.
Could be I'm corrupted by knowledge, once again.
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
It turns out the shooter did have some connection to the judge, and he seems to have been an anti-feminist whack job. He apparently killed himself after the murder.
Roy Den Hollander named as suspect in Judge Esther Salas' son's death
Roy Den Hollander named as suspect in Judge Esther Salas' son's death
Just to clarify, I was not implying Trump had anything to do with the attack. He had a history of verbally attacking people, but the only instance I know of where anyone connected to him even threatened violence was with Stormy Daniels before she signed the NDA.
The Deutche Bank case does involve the Trump Organization on the US end, but it also touches on a lot of other powerful people around the world. The case centers around Russian oligarchs laundering money using Deutche Bank and the Trump Organization. There is one Russian oligarch I can think of who has the motive, means, and opportunity to put out a hit on a US federal judge. He has been behind other attacks and murders of his enemies around the world for years. The most recent high profile attack was in Salisbury UK.
As of 30 minutes ago the shooter has been traced down and is dead, but nobody has said how he died
Anti-Feminist Suspect Dead After Son Of Federal Judge Killed, Husband Wounded
He appeared to be another attorney who may have targeted her because she was a woman.
Princeton university has a set of implicit bias tests. I've taken the racial one several times (initially it was the only one available) and depending on the day, I have come out mildly biased both ways as well as neutral.
But I have pointed out that many countries have a group who is the underclass. In the US it's been African Americans from the beginning along with other ethnic groups at different times. In the early years of the republic it was the Irish, later Jews, and Southern Europeans as well as Eastern Europeans. It's been Hispanics the last century, but they are beginning to mainstream in some ways. There is a bifurcation in Hispanic attitudes. A Hispanic driving an old pickup and dressed shabbily is suspicious, while a Hispanic in a suit is usually as invisible as a white male in a suit. The Republicans have two Hispanic Senators, but most of the anti-Hispanic racists don't think of them as Hispanic. There is at least one Hispanic Republican in the House too (mine Jamie Herrera Buetler WA-3) as well as some in state legislatures.
I have a friend who was born in Quebec and her first language is French. She has lived in Canada outside Quebec most of her adult life and the discrimination she gets for having a French accent is very similar to the discrimination American blacks get. Her stories would fit almost perfectly with the modern African-American experience with just some nouns changed.
Other cultures have their own "out" groups that have experienced long term discrimination. Up until recently having a Scottish accent in England was the kiss of death socially. I worked with someone years ago who had emigrated to the US from the UK in the 1950s because of all the discrimination he had to deal with for having a low class Scottish accent. It didn't matter he had advanced degrees in engineering and, I think, Physics from Oxford. Because of his accent, he was labeled low class by other Brits. He said in the US he was suddenly the cool guy with the interesting accent.
Many humans have pecking orders and people like to know where everyone else sits in the pecking order. If there is some easy determinant like accent or skin color, all the better.
Now not all humans have these hierarchies. I like to think I'm decent at ignoring hierarchies and where people fall in them, but my SO is way beyond me. She is not impressed in the least by anyone who has status among domesticated primates.
The Hill - this morning: Report: Kasich to speak at Democratic convention on behalf of Biden
Excerpt:
Former Ohio Gov. John Kasich (R) is expected to speak on behalf of former Vice President Joe Biden at the Democratic National Convention next month.
It’s unclear if Kasich will explicitly endorse the presumptive Democratic nominee when he speaks at the convention. But the expected remarks would amount to a major show of support for Biden by a lifelong Republican who rose to political prominence amid the Tea Party movement a decade ago.
Excerpt:
Former Ohio Gov. John Kasich (R) is expected to speak on behalf of former Vice President Joe Biden at the Democratic National Convention next month.
It’s unclear if Kasich will explicitly endorse the presumptive Democratic nominee when he speaks at the convention. But the expected remarks would amount to a major show of support for Biden by a lifelong Republican who rose to political prominence amid the Tea Party movement a decade ago.
Big protests in Portland tonight at the federal courthouse to protest the federal police activity. They are doing obnoxious singing, but no criminal activity. I just checked Portland Police's Twitter feed, they post police calls. There is one vandalism call that is about 3 miles from the courthouse. Not a single call from anywhere near the courthouse.
Portland Police log (@pdxpolicelog) on Twitter
There were radical people on the left who also had a violent streak in the late 60s and early 70s. The Manson Family was technically leftist, so was the Weather Underground. Some of these radicals were around and semi-active for years afterward, but very, very few liberals are violent today. Antifa is a recent phenomenon and while conservative media likes to make a big deal out of them, there are very few of them. As the article I posted the other day pointed out, there is not a single death attributed has been attributed to them while violent right wing people have killed 313 people in the United States since 2009
Right-wing terrorism - Wikipedia
The number of people killed by extremists is something that can be more easily measured. Just like there can be a lot of argument about how many COVID cases out there, but the death count is something much easier to measure. In a little over 10 years, 313 people are dead from right wing violence and zero dead from left wing violence. Which is a more serious threat to the public?
Portland Police log (@pdxpolicelog) on Twitter
There were radical people on the left who also had a violent streak in the late 60s and early 70s. The Manson Family was technically leftist, so was the Weather Underground. Some of these radicals were around and semi-active for years afterward, but very, very few liberals are violent today. Antifa is a recent phenomenon and while conservative media likes to make a big deal out of them, there are very few of them. As the article I posted the other day pointed out, there is not a single death attributed has been attributed to them while violent right wing people have killed 313 people in the United States since 2009
Right-wing terrorism - Wikipedia
The number of people killed by extremists is something that can be more easily measured. Just like there can be a lot of argument about how many COVID cases out there, but the death count is something much easier to measure. In a little over 10 years, 313 people are dead from right wing violence and zero dead from left wing violence. Which is a more serious threat to the public?
bkp_duke
Well-Known Member
Actually, there are strict legal definitions for protest vs. riot.
Property damage being one of the key distinguishing features.
https://beyond.britannica.com/how-d...fine-the-difference-between-a-protest-vs-riot
Biden speaking live right now. As a huge Bernie supporter, I have to say I have been feeling good about Biden for some time now. Compared to Trump, well, the difference is as vast as the Sahara.
I wrote too early. But there is no proof what the political motivation of the people who started the riot are. It's possible they were leftist, but it's also possible they had no political motivation and were just taking advantage of the situation, and there is at least some possibility that they were right wing people out to make the libtards look bad. I'll withhold any opinion until some of the rioters are caught and identified.
Yes, that qualifies as a riot.
After I wrote I had to run some errands. The local NPR station had many local reports about last night's riots. In an interview with the police chief, he said that the feds were coordinating with the local police until a few weeks ago when these unidentified federal people came in and then the feds went completely silent. He said this has never happened before.
From some reporters who were there last night and had reported on protests before, normal procedure in these sorts of situations is that when people are gathering like this law enforcement first issues a warning to the protesters telling them to disperse or the police will use force to break up the protest. Following an incident like this there will be a press conference where the police involved will explain what happened. These police gave no warnings and have had no public statements at all.
As far as what happened last night (according to an eye witness reporter), a group of mothers with some fathers formed a human wall in front of the doors of the court house before midnight. The federal people were all inside the courthouse. There was a lot of chanting and such, but fairly peaceful. About 12:30 the feds burst out of the court house firing tear gas, pepper balls, and rubber bullets indiscriminately with no warning. That's when the riot kicked off.
Rioting is not an appropriate response, but the people who are acting as law enforcement (we know there are some US marshals in the group, but we don't know for sure what the law enforcement credentials of all these people are), have not followed normal procedures in this situation.
Oregon Law requires law enforcement to notify protesters to disperse
ORS 131.675 - Dispersal of unlawful or riotous assemblages - 2020 Oregon Revised Statutes
It states law enforcement must give notice to disperse before using force to disperse a gathering.
Now whether this applies to federal law enforcement or not, this falls back on a SCOTUS opinion from 1890 called the Neagle decision. It's been cited many times since in cases where states try to bring federal employees to task for violating state laws. The most current decision was by the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals in Idaho v Horiuchi who was the FBI sniper who shot Randy Weaver's wife at Ruby Ridge. They ruled that the FBI agent was acting unreasonably and Horiuchi could be prosecuted under Idaho law.
My SO has pointed out in making a determination of whether the feds crossed the line is an objectively reasonable test and she believes the feds fail it. If the State of Oregon can win on the objective reasonableness argument in court, then qualified immunity goes away for the feds. The current AG of Oregon is one of the most experienced state AGs in the country. She's been a judge on the Oregon state court of Appeals and a federal prosecutor.
From some reporters who were there last night and had reported on protests before, normal procedure in these sorts of situations is that when people are gathering like this law enforcement first issues a warning to the protesters telling them to disperse or the police will use force to break up the protest. Following an incident like this there will be a press conference where the police involved will explain what happened. These police gave no warnings and have had no public statements at all.
As far as what happened last night (according to an eye witness reporter), a group of mothers with some fathers formed a human wall in front of the doors of the court house before midnight. The federal people were all inside the courthouse. There was a lot of chanting and such, but fairly peaceful. About 12:30 the feds burst out of the court house firing tear gas, pepper balls, and rubber bullets indiscriminately with no warning. That's when the riot kicked off.
Rioting is not an appropriate response, but the people who are acting as law enforcement (we know there are some US marshals in the group, but we don't know for sure what the law enforcement credentials of all these people are), have not followed normal procedures in this situation.
Oregon Law requires law enforcement to notify protesters to disperse
ORS 131.675 - Dispersal of unlawful or riotous assemblages - 2020 Oregon Revised Statutes
It states law enforcement must give notice to disperse before using force to disperse a gathering.
Now whether this applies to federal law enforcement or not, this falls back on a SCOTUS opinion from 1890 called the Neagle decision. It's been cited many times since in cases where states try to bring federal employees to task for violating state laws. The most current decision was by the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals in Idaho v Horiuchi who was the FBI sniper who shot Randy Weaver's wife at Ruby Ridge. They ruled that the FBI agent was acting unreasonably and Horiuchi could be prosecuted under Idaho law.
My SO has pointed out in making a determination of whether the feds crossed the line is an objectively reasonable test and she believes the feds fail it. If the State of Oregon can win on the objective reasonableness argument in court, then qualified immunity goes away for the feds. The current AG of Oregon is one of the most experienced state AGs in the country. She's been a judge on the Oregon state court of Appeals and a federal prosecutor.
Are the going to blame the Feds and lack of procedure for what's going on in Chicago as well? This is local police.
Chicago police release video showing confrontation near Grant Park Columbus statue protest
Any sane person can tell this is no longer about peaceful protests but about creating chaos.
There is no excuse for this behavior in Portland, Chicago, or any city in the US. Yet you keep finding excuses for them.
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