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Mason mother of 5 dead in Clermont County crash (Model Y crash)

240vPlug

Member
Feb 3, 2021
81
44
Maryland
There are clearly a lot of facts missing from this story. It would appear that the vehicle was traveling above the speed limit based on the damage to the tree shown in the picture. Electric vehicles have an immense amount of energy stored in the battery. Similarly ICE vehicles have energy stored in their fuel tanks. There is always a chance that energy could be released in an uncontrolled manner with either vehicle. I would argue less of a chance with an EV…much less.

The problem here is it is new technology and most people fear it because they do not understand it. I’m no expert but I don’t think water is the most effective way to extinguish a battery fire. It is a case of using the wrong tool for the job that may very well have been the only tool they had available.

To their credit they did quote the Tesla website at the end of the article which give some perspective on the likelihood of EV fires. I have long said that EV should have some kind of thermal alarm to notify those near the vehicle it is at risk of combustion. This would go a long way to ease the concerns of consumers over EV fires. The main issue is that folks are used to smelling gas or seeing something leaking from an ice before a fire. EV fires while very rare compared to ice can happen very very quickly and with little warning of a problem. In this case there was a severe accident though which would put anyone on alert of a possible fire ice or EV.
 
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DanDi58

Active Member
Jun 22, 2020
1,625
1,286
Dayton NJ
Look, every time there is a crash with a Tesla, it gets reported, especially if there is a fire. Much of it is just FUD by the media, who automatically assume it's a failure of Autopilot or FSD (they don't really know the difference). You could probably Google BMW X5 crash fire and find plenty of those, they just aren't reported as widely. In fact, here is one -

EV's are still relatively unknown animals. Tesla in particular is always a target because they are the #1 EV producer. People don't like Elon (and in many ways, he doesn't help with that). There are plenty of folks who lost their shorts shorting Tesla who are still bitter. Even the Federal gov't snubs Tesla. But the fact is that they are top-rated safety-wise. That said, you can do stupid things with them and get killed, just as easily as you can in any vehicle. I suspect this investigation will show the same, unfortunately.
 

Atari2600

Active Member
Oct 4, 2017
1,086
999
Cincinnati
Looks like the front right wheel assembly was destroyed and the battery pack has a massive amount of damage, unless the firefighters did that. The car was resting on the drivers side.
teslapackdamage.jpg
 

Fourdoor

Active Member
May 31, 2016
1,223
1,142
United States
Also, the Fox News version of this story went on to talk about how electric car fires require 40 times more water than "a mainstream gas-powered car"
So I guess Fox is against electric cars.

I am dealing with the Chevy Bolt battery recall right now because there are two rare defects that if BOTH are present in the SAME battery cell can lead to a battery pack fire. Half of the Bolt forum thinks the risk is so minute as compared to the number of ICE cars that burn up each year that it is a non issue, and the other half think Chevrolet responded way to slowly to a life threatening defect... it is exhausting.

One of the reasons for the discrepancy in attitude about a battery fire vs a gasoline fire is that a gasoline fire can be rapidly extinguished with fire fighting foam, but it takes a massive amount of water to slow down and stop thermal runaway in a Lithium Ion battery... how is pointing this out anti EV?

Keith
 
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Fourdoor

Active Member
May 31, 2016
1,223
1,142
United States
fair enough. What about 1 gallon? I’m not keen on spending any extended time with gasoline.
A model Y battery is equivelent to about 2 gallons of gasoline, so I will take a BIC lighter (fossil fuel in plastic container, including an ignition source) over the backpack full of batteries... it will be way lighter to carry, and people have been carrying them relatively safely for half a century now :)

Keith
 

Atari2600

Active Member
Oct 4, 2017
1,086
999
Cincinnati
I am dealing with the Chevy Bolt battery recall right now because there are two rare defects that if BOTH are present in the SAME battery cell can lead to a battery pack fire. Half of the Bolt forum thinks the risk is so minute as compared to the number of ICE cars that burn up each year that it is a non issue, and the other half think Chevrolet responded way to slowly to a life threatening defect... it is exhausting.

One of the reasons for the discrepancy in attitude about a battery fire vs a gasoline fire is that a gasoline fire can be rapidly extinguished with fire fighting foam, but it takes a massive amount of water to slow down and stop thermal runaway in a Lithium Ion battery... how is pointing this out anti EV?

Keith
If "a mainstream gas-powered car" was worded "a gas-powered car" I would have been fine. War on EV subversive phrasing adds up and influences people. Nearly 80% of car sales in Norway are not a mainstream gas-powered car these days.
 
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Fourdoor

Active Member
May 31, 2016
1,223
1,142
United States
If "a mainstream gas-powered car" was worded "a gas-powered car" I would have been fine. War on EV subversive phrasing adds up and influences people. Nearly 80% of car sales in Norway are not a mainstream gas-powered car these days.
Wow, I thought Cincinnati was in Ohio... thanks for letting me know that it is in Norway!

In Norway the vast majority of cars on the road are still ICE cars... it will be years and years more of high EV sales before they outnumber the ICE cars on the road in Norway. Out of over 5.67 million registered cars in Norway, around 350,000 are pure EV's and if you include plug in hybrids they fall just a bit shy of half a million at 490,000. So, in Norway ICE cars are still the mainstream.

Sorry to disappoint you.

Keith

PS: Those EV sales in Norway are subsidized by the government, and the government gets the money to subsidize EV's by selling massive amounts of fossil fuel to the rest of Europe. I don't want the US to follow Norway's path to EV dominance...
 

leaftoy

Member
Aug 26, 2021
474
721
Bay Area, CA
A model Y battery is equivelent to about 2 gallons of gasoline, so I will take a BIC lighter (fossil fuel in plastic container, including an ignition source) over the backpack full of batteries... it will be way lighter to carry, and people have been carrying them relatively safely for half a century now :)

Keith
So there is an ICE engine that can drive a 4500lb vehicle 330 miles using just 2 gallons of gas? :)
 
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Fourdoor

Active Member
May 31, 2016
1,223
1,142
United States
So there is an ICE engine that can drive a 4500lb vehicle 330 miles using just 2 gallons of gas? :)
Nope. Even a diesel ICE is no where near as efficient as an electric motor. You could move a Model Y 250 miles on the highway on 2 gallons of gas if you could convert the chemical energy into electricity... in an ICE engine car a huge amount of that energy is wasted as heat either directly out the exhaust pipe, or via the radiator. A gallon of gasoline contains 33.7 kWh of energy, so I guess it is actually equivelent to 2.2 gallons of gasoline stored in the MY battery :)

Keith
 
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apodbdrsM3

Member
Aug 12, 2019
67
25
Anaheim
Hopefully, the data recorder and video captured will help determine details of the crash. Tesla battery fires are caused by heat, not because they are punctured. Case in point, an individual in Indiana years ago shot a 45 cal through the battery pack causing no effect. I don't remember his reasoning or purpose.
 

avs007

Member
May 14, 2021
615
481
PacNW
Hopefully, the data recorder and video captured will help determine details of the crash. Tesla battery fires are caused by heat, not because they are punctured. Case in point, an individual in Indiana years ago shot a 45 cal through the battery pack causing no effect. I don't remember his reasoning or purpose.
Partially true... There was a documentary on battery technology on NOVA a while ago, where they discribed all the different types of LiIon batteries... With most battery chemistries, when you puncture the LiIon, it will short the cell, which can lead to thermal runaway, which is what causes the fire... They did show a new chemistry that uses a solid electrolyte, that was not vulnerable to this, and even showed them cutting the cells with scissors while it was connected to a power source, and it didn't interrupt the flow of electricity, until the voltage undervolted the test circuit. But that chemistry isn't used/mainstream yet, it was still experimental.
 

ItsNotAboutTheMoney

Well-Known Member
Jul 12, 2012
11,215
9,097
Maine
Nope. Even a diesel ICE is no where near as efficient as an electric motor. You could move a Model Y 250 miles on the highway on 2 gallons of gas if you could convert the chemical energy into electricity... in an ICE engine car a huge amount of that energy is wasted as heat either directly out the exhaust pipe, or via the radiator. A gallon of gasoline contains 33.7 kWh of energy, so I guess it is actually equivelent to 2.2 gallons of gasoline stored in the MY battery :)

Keith

Aside: the standard EPA gallon has 33.7 kWh of energy, but that is with no ethanol. So typical E10 has about 32.6kWh of energy.
 
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DanDi58

Active Member
Jun 22, 2020
1,625
1,286
Dayton NJ
Aside: the standard EPA gallon has 33.7 kWh of energy, but that is with no ethanol. So typical E10 has about 32.6kWh of energy.
And this isn't really a good comparison because most of the energy is lost to heat. So saying a MY battery is like 2.2 gallons of gas isn't really painting an accurate picture.
 

avs007

Member
May 14, 2021
615
481
PacNW
And this isn't really a good comparison because most of the energy is lost to heat. So saying a MY battery is like 2.2 gallons of gas isn't really painting an accurate picture.
To put some numbers on this... According to Car and Driver, a gas engine is around 30-35% efficient... Tesla told Car and Driver that the motors in the Model S is 90% efficient, and is able to hit 94% efficiency during EPA test cycle.
 

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