Massive SC subsidizing by new owners?

[Zybane]

So I noticed that the local super charger (Coeur d'Alene Idaho) has a rate of 0.27 cents/kWh.

I thought to myself, wait; there is a hydroelectric plant a few miles away and my utility bill is only 0.086 cents/kWh.

This means Telsa is charging 320% more for their electricity?

So basically; I am subsidizing everyone that got lifetime free supercharging with their cars? That's pretty lame.

 

[Nogasmn]

I thought it was understood that Tesla is going to charge ~3x what the utility company charges. My local supercharger costs about that much.

 

[Zybane]

I thought it was understood that Tesla is going to charge ~3x what the utility company charges. My local supercharger costs about that much.

Did you read that somewhere? Source? Is this just for profit?

 

[doghousePVD]

Apparently you guys don’t know how commercial power is priced. The biggest charge is the demand charge, not the kWh consumed.

Making Sense of Demand Charges: What Are They and How Do They Work? - Renewable Energy World Is a link. Google for more info.

google for

 

[animorph]

Tesla is undoubtedly paying different rates than residential customers. They may have demand charges that would be very high for EV charging at high power. They may have time of use charges, which might be unfavorable for daytime charging. They have installation and maintenance costs. Hopefully most Superchargers don't have to pay for their land use. It's not all profit or subsidy. Do they break out Supercharger operation in their financial reports?

 

[DOCAL]

So I noticed that the local super charger (Coeur d'Alene Idaho) has a rate of 0.27 cents/kWh.

Verizon math strikes again!

That point aside, as @doghousePVD points out, commercial rates for electricity are priced very differently from household pricing. That's why using battery packs for "peak shaving" is such a big thing for heavy users.

 

[brkaus]

No reason to charge exact same as home. Not only the issue of commercial rates, but they have a lot of infrastructure to maintain (hopefully maintain well).

If you were to compare the home rate, also have to consider the home EVSE station, installation, maintenance, and space. And that is a lower charge rate.

 

[Zybane]

Verizon math strikes again!

That point aside, as @doghousePVD points out, commercial rates for electricity are priced very differently from household pricing. That's why using battery packs for "peak shaving" is such a big thing for heavy users.

That logic would work out, until you realize commercial and industrial electricity rates are lower than residential rates in the area.

Tesla is charging almost 600% of the industrial rate.

 

[doghousePVD]

That logic would work out, until you realize commercial and industrial electricity rates are lower than residential rates in the area.

Tesla is charging almost 600% of the industrial rate.

Not when you include demand charges. Please demonstrate your point with actual data, not flatulence.

Show data for any US jurisdiction.

 

[nwdiver]

So I noticed that the local super charger (Coeur d'Alene Idaho) has a rate of 0.27 cents/kWh.

I thought to myself, wait; there is a hydroelectric plant a few miles away and my utility bill is only 0.086 cents/kWh.

This means Telsa is charging 320% more for their electricity?

So basically; I am subsidizing everyone that got lifetime free supercharging with their cars? That's pretty lame.

There was a drought in Uzbeckbecky stan-stan so they lost almost the entire Supercharger crop... Tesla is hoping the harvest is better next year... that should lower the cost of super chargers. Electricity is a small part of the equation.

And speaking of rip-offs. I signed up for wind energy but they add $0.03/kWh to my bill... WHY? Wind is FREE!

 

[brkaus]

Please demonstrate your point with actual data, not flatulence.

WHY? Wind is FREE!

I get the feeling that these two posts are somehow related?

 

[doghousePVD]

Not when you include demand charges. Please demonstrate your point with actual data, not flatulence.

Show data for any US jurisdiction.

Just for hoots, I calculated the energy cost for East Greenwich RI Supercharger. It's an 8 stall 150 kw SC. Tesla assumes a 50% stall usage, and I assumed an average consumption of 50%, ie, 75kw. I used the National Grid G-32 tariff for large users.

The demand charges are $10,842. The supply costs are $5,679. There are $4,595 of renewable energy surcharges, customer fees, misc fees, etc. The total bill would be $21,096 per month for 216,000 kWh delivered, or 10¢ kWh. Obviously does not include cost of maintenance, repairs, construction, rent, snow plowing, etc.

I think the SC charge in RI is 27¢. My residential rate in RI is 22¢, with no ToU or EV rates available.

 

[Rocky_H]

has a rate of 0.27 cents/kWh

Verizon math strikes again!

I love that you noticed this.

 

[webbbcam]

Free Supercharging has never really been “free”. when I purchased my MS 85D you could get a Model S (was it the 60?) without supercharging included but rather add it as a $2000 option.

We’ve simply paid for our electricity in advance.

If you can’t afford 27 cents I’m on PlugShare. Come over and charge at my house (Alas only Level 2).

 

[brkaus]

And to compare the actual cost at home -

My math may be messed up, but...

12k miles per year (average)
320Wh/Mi (model S - I think)
=3840 kWh/yr
$0.12 kWh (average)
=$460 yr

Cost to install my HPWC = $1800 (including licensed electrician, wiring, conduit, separate meter, HPWC, permits)

Let's put the cost over 3 years, I may move, it may brake, I may decide some other technology is good for me in the future. $1800/3 = $600/year

Effective annual cost of electricity = $480 + $600 = $1080

$1080 / 3840 = $0.28 kWh delivered @ 50a.

I think I have that right... long day...

 

[mociaf9]

That logic would work out, until you realize commercial and industrial electricity rates are lower than residential rates in the area.

Tesla is charging almost 600% of the industrial rate.

CdA's electricity provider is Avista, right? On Avista's informational webpage for rates and tariffs, go to the second link: How to Calculate Your Bill -- Non-Residential. The downloaded PDF will walk you through how to estimate what Tesla is actually paying for their electricity, though the per kWh rates are out of date for 2019 and later. Current rates can be found by clicking on the appropriate link on the informational page linked above. My guess is that Tesla is on the General Service (Schedule 11) rate, but they might be on the Large General Service (Schedule 21) rate.

In order to estimate their cost, you'd have to choose values for their Demand and total energy use. Since I'm not familiar with how busy the site is I used total spitball numbers and came out with, that on the General Service rate Tesla's total cost was between $0.19-$0.22 / kWh. So, my guesstimate showed that there's maybe a 5-8 cents (30-40%) mark up to pay for capital costs of installation, any rent, maintenance, and overhead. Seems perfectly reasonable to me.

Note: the above estimate may be off in either direction.

 

[hill]

So I noticed that the local super charger (Coeur d'Alene Idaho) has a rate of 0.27 cents/kWh.

I thought to myself, wait; there is a hydroelectric plant a few miles away and my utility bill is only 0.086 cents/kWh.

This means Telsa is charging 320% more for their electricity?

So basically; I am subsidizing everyone that got lifetime free supercharging with their cars? That's pretty lame.

Yes - YOU are subsidizing the minority who got free charging . . . . U are not sponsoring that house sized transformer (capable of outputting power equivalent to running 50 homes while everything in their homes are turned on electrically) that's parked not too far from the stall you use .... nor are you sponsoring maintenance, insurance land lease etc.
Wonder who it was that put a gun to your head preventing you from buying one of those used Tesla's where my free supercharging goes to the new owner. With all the defects, plus fit & finished issues we had on our two early cars, I would have gladly sold both to you.

.

 

[Randy Spencer]

I live near a Supercharger and walk by it every day. Although the VAST majority of cars in Alameda are Model 3s (more every hour) the SuC is always full of Xs and Ss, so despite being "able" to charge their car at home, it seems those with Free Supercharging, will use it.

 

[user212_nr]

So I noticed that the local super charger (Coeur d'Alene Idaho) has a rate of 0.27 cents/kWh.

I thought to myself, wait; there is a hydroelectric plant a few miles away and my utility bill is only 0.086 cents/kWh.

This means Telsa is charging 320% more for their electricity?

So basically; I am subsidizing everyone that got lifetime free supercharging with their cars? That's pretty lame.

You are listed as in Washington, D.C, but yet you are comparing your local rates. Maybe you live in Washington state?

I'm not really sure why you expect them to provide you with an accounting of their profits and expenses as a customer of theirs. You are not forced to use their superchargers, and ANYONE can open their own supercharger (minus the trademarks) station if indeed they can sell electricity at a cheaper rate.

Tesla has stated that they run the stations at a loss, and so the fact that Tesla subsides people who bought more expensive cars (or bought earlier) more than they subsidize you isn't such hard thing to figure out. You're still getting subsidized. Maybe they make a "profit" on the electricity vs the local rates, but you don't know how much the land costs, how much it costs to build, how many people use the station, let alone how to amortize those numbers.

 

[smatthew]

I live near a Supercharger and walk by it every day. Although the VAST majority of cars in Alameda are Model 3s (more every hour) the SuC is always full of Xs and Ss, so despite being "able" to charge their car at home, it seems those with Free Supercharging, will use it.

Amen. I was in Woodburn, OR, and there was an old guy, in an old nosecone S, sitting there, plugged in, and charging at under 10kW. Sorry, if all stalls are full, and you are local, don't charge over 80%. Don't spoil my road trip just so you can save 20 cents on electricity.