Only that no one has actually seen the 82KWH pack in a Long Range yet. Only Performance for now.
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MASTER THREAD: 2021 Model 3 - Charge data, battery discussion etc
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Only that no one has actually seen the 82KWH pack in a Long Range yet. Only Performance for now.
AlanSubie4Life
Efficiency Obsessed Member
I'd say given current data we don't know that this will be possible at low SoC. If you're sensitive to this, I would delay your purchase until you know for sure.
I think that's a reason to be concerned, with what we know now. I would describe it as "TBD" in the US, rather than "known to be an issue." Generally seems ok, but there seems to be a lack of knowledge about what is going to happen in extreme cold at low SoC in the US for the 2021 model year.
You can read the first 40 pages of this thread and get that answer, but it is fairly well established now, and as a result, there's not anyone really contesting it so I think you can take it as a known fact.
You seem concerned about the purchase, and I always recommend that people who are apprehensive about their purchase to slow their roll, especially if they have specific concerns. You have to judge the wisdom of the purchase decision by your personal ability to adjust to changes. An EV is a big adjustment (I don't know whether or not you already have an EV, but I am assuming you don't from now on - if you already have a Tesla you probably already know the answers and can disregard). EDIT: Just looked at your post history and you appear to already have a Model 3 so I think you can disregard - though the questions may be useful to others who are thinking of buying, so I'll leave them.
I'd suggest you answer the following questions to assess your expectations and then it can be determined whether they align with reality:
1) How far do you expect to be able to drive between charging stops on a road trip?
2) How far do you expect to be able to drive around town between charges?
3) What is your electric rate and how much do you expect to spend on energy for your vehicle?
4) How well do you expect the vehicle to handle in the snow and ice, and how will you accomplish this?
5) What sort of performance reduction is acceptable to you at low SoC, which you'd typically only encounter on road trips (but depends on your daily driving distance)?
6) How much do you expect your range to decrease after 3 years of ownership?
7) Do you expect to use this as your only vehicle, or do you plan to also own an ICE? Are you prepared for the restrictions that ownership of an EV alone present, and what are those restrictions?
I think this covers most of the "I purchased this car and now I'm upset" topics that are frequently covered here. It's worth going through them as part of your research decision. No surprises is a good thing!
I don't want to derail this thread too much, so hopefully we can bring it back to the discussion about how the 2021 specifically might be expected to do in these respects, and how it differs from prior model years.
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Where I live we use wintertyres for 6 months each year, november to (including) april.
I have always used studded tyres and will continue with that habit. These do not stay fresh if you use a lot of power often( ask me how I know...
)For me the need to try to keep the studded tyres fresh overrules the need for power and actually in the very most cases its a lot more power than the tyres can handle long term.
Just came back from a 40+40km drive in -25C, ended at 36% SOC and had at least 252kw battery power. My son took a screen shot which say 252kW, he saw a top at 290kW, but it was probably a peak.
252kw 343hp (-3 for heat pump etc) leaves about engines 320hp if 95% efficiency. Thats more than I feel comfortable using for the sake of the wheels.
Battery temp was about 10 C for whole ride. Started at 11, after been parked at the garage for >24hours and got down to 10C quite quick and stayed there. Had a bit of wait in the neighbour town, dropped to 8.75C when parked and it raised to 10 quite quickly when I started driving. Stayed at 10 until I started using power close to home, then it raised to 11C.
I wonder how this compares to insidevs dyno testing of the 2019 at various SOC? 320HP is pretty disappointing from my perspective at 36 percent SOC. Maybe it’s just me but I suspect a lot of M3P owners wouldn’t be thrilled at that figure when peak HP is closer to 500. Is it really minus 25C where you live? That’s brutal.Where I live we use wintertyres for 6 months each year, november to (including) april.
I have always used studded tyres and will continue with that habit. These do not stay fresh if you use a lot of power often( ask me how I know...
For me the need to try to keep the studded tyres fresh overrules the need for power and actually in the very most cases its a lot more power than the tyres can handle long term.
Just came back from a 40+40km drive in -25C, ended at 36% SOC and had at least 252kw battery power. My son took a screen shot which say 252kW, he saw a top at 290kW, but it was probably a peak.
252kw 343hp (-3 for heat pump etc) leaves about engines 320hp if 95% efficiency. Thats more than I feel comfortable using for the sake of the wheels.
Battery temp was about 10 C for whole ride. Started at 11, after been parked at the garage for >24hours and got down to 10C quite quick and stayed there. Had a bit of wait in the neighbour town, dropped to 8.75C when parked and it raised to 10 quite quickly when I started driving. Stayed at 10 until I started using power close to home, then it raised to 11C.
View attachment 637646
InsideEV tested an M3P and reflected an 80hp loss at 40 percent SOC. Your test is reflecting about 150hp loss? That’s a big difference cold temps or not.Where I live we use wintertyres for 6 months each year, november to (including) april.
I have always used studded tyres and will continue with that habit. These do not stay fresh if you use a lot of power often( ask me how I know...
For me the need to try to keep the studded tyres fresh overrules the need for power and actually in the very most cases its a lot more power than the tyres can handle long term.
Just came back from a 40+40km drive in -25C, ended at 36% SOC and had at least 252kw battery power. My son took a screen shot which say 252kW, he saw a top at 290kW, but it was probably a peak.
252kw 343hp (-3 for heat pump etc) leaves about engines 320hp if 95% efficiency. Thats more than I feel comfortable using for the sake of the wheels.
Battery temp was about 10 C for whole ride. Started at 11, after been parked at the garage for >24hours and got down to 10C quite quick and stayed there. Had a bit of wait in the neighbour town, dropped to 8.75C when parked and it raised to 10 quite quickly when I started driving. Stayed at 10 until I started using power close to home, then it raised to 11C.
View attachment 637646
Venom
Member
Really helpful, thanks! I've never owned a Tesla, I was going to purchase one back in 2019 but had to cancel because the time wasn't right. Now I'm in a situation to buy, I sold my old car and am driving my wifes small sedan, which isn't fun in the slightest
I feel like if I keep waiting, I might as well just wait for the 4680s in the Model 3, which is probably about a year away now.
All of your questions lineup with my expectations of the Model 3. The only thing stopping me is question 5, at a 20% SoC, a 1 second reduction in 0-60 is acceptable for me.
I will never take the car below 20% and will charge it to 90% each night. I will only drive 20 miles per day, but in September when my office opens again I will have a 150 mile commute.
Only one shipment last Xmas. Now those are coming Fremont. And people who has already got details there is Panasonic battery.
If this is the case then I would expect that the LR has the big battery now as well. That would be very good news. Let's see from the deliveries that started taking place already this week
It will still take 10 months for the first Plaid+ to be delivered. So no, the Model 3 with 4680 will not be here in approximately 1 year.
Two years, maybe. But I wouldn't be surprised if it will be 3-4 years.
What model you are talking?
SR+ is coming with new Panasonic battery cells like Performance. LR is still open what you are getting. LG or Panasonic.
AlanSubie4Life
Efficiency Obsessed Member
Source for this?
I would not be surprised, since the new SR+ has slightly more capacity than prior years, but it seemed like they could also have been stretching the older cells. (If they do have the new cells, they are using nearly none of the additional capacity.)
But either way I haven’t seen evidence. Do we have a picture of the SR+ pack label with an L in the code or something, or the delivery documentation in Europe? Might have missed it here, but we should definitely post it to this thread if it has not been done already.
The question was about the LR getting the 82KWH 2170L Pack, which you can see from the quotes above my original post.
True, I was saying that since early January when I leaked the European Type Certificate v14. That wasn't the question though!
True, you are repeating exactly what I said.
@AlanSubie4Life
This is the type certificate I leaked early January. All SR+ that came to Germany were E1LR, not a single E1CR.
The part "AWD SR" is a typo and should say "RWD SR"!
In the 2nd picture in your message it also says adding 2170L to AWD Long Range as well though..
Yes. That is the next step Tesla will take, but they haven't yet. No E3LD anywhere to be seen and Tesla won't hand out the additional range as a present and without a new WLTP run I assume.
How would that work?
That video is about v13 (Refresh initial version) from October 2020. The LR with the 2170L cells was only certified for Europe on the 28th of December 2020 with v14. Those WLTP Tests for the Long Range (v13) must have been done with the (smaller) LG pack.
I know this is a heated debate, but anything else would be untruthful to the customer base and it makes no sense to do a WLTP run with a battery that is not certified for the car in the same test process.
That video is about v13 (Refresh initial version) from October 2020. The LR with the 2170L cells was only certified for Europe on the 28th of December 2020 with v14. Those WLTP Tests for the Long Range (v13) must have been done with the (smaller) LG pack.
I know this is a heated debate, but anything else would be untruthful to the customer base and it makes no sense to do a WLTP run with a battery that is not certified for the car in the same test process.
Based to this energy usage is same these. So only way to get longer range is use bigger battery.
AlanSubie4Life
Efficiency Obsessed Member
Thanks. I had not been paying attention to the SR entries before when you posted this, I guess. And it sounds like L-type deliveries were confirmed to Germany for the SR+. Did anyone happen to take a picture of the pack label on an SR+? I think we have FWPN values from SMT that are ~53.5kWh now (I can't remember)?
Interesting. Guess they have unleashed about 2% improvement, are going to wait on unleashing that additional capacity until the LR gets more range, probably. Seems like they could probably get to about 270 rated miles (EPA) for the current SR+, as shipped, simply by using available capacity. Maybe they'll never increase it; who knows.
That's definitely been debated here, but there's a very decent argument that there's no need to have extra capacity to make the newer 580km WLTP rating. Can review the many prior pages for all the arguments! The summary is: there is a solid reason that looks quantitatively (not just qualitatively) correct that 3.6% more range can be achieved with 3.5% less capacity due to an improvement in efficiency of about 7%. But people have various opinions!
Note that this test was done with the latest software. There has been about a 7% improvement in efficiency over the last couple years, and that seems to have come from software alone, based on the 2020 Performance 18" and the 2021 raw EPA results (the cycles that don't have any significant impact of heat pump, for 2021) compared to prior years. This information is readily publicly available for your perusal.
So you'd expect a 2019 to have about 600km WLTP range with the efficiency improvement. But anyway this has already been covered and hotly debated. Though mostly the debate centered around whether Tesla had been honest or not, not the raw results.
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