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MASTER THREAD: 2021 Model 3 - Charge data, battery discussion etc
- Thread starter EV Promoter
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Just went back home with my new 2021 Performance Model 3 .Just 2 or 3 fast things:
-I see that in Energy screen if I see the last 10 km I have an average Wh/km much more better than if I see (exmple from last trip started 10 km before).
In this moment I have 118 Vs 139 Wh/km. I Know it's not always accurate but in my old LR AWD 2019 I never seen such a difference.
The same is for last 25 km and last 50km (a very high discrepancy )
- I have now 180 km on the odometer and Im at 80% (just supercharged... they gave me the car at delivery at 39%) , I made the Average 50km * expected range / 80% battery and I have only 79 kWh.
It's time to connect SMT (I'll let you knw).
-I hear constantly a noise of fans turning (even now that it's 1 ohour that I'm home) and even a noise like when it' preheating to go supercharger even if I'm not going to supercharger .
Yes the consumption seems very high, much much more than my old 2019 LR AWD.
-I see that in Energy screen if I see the last 10 km I have an average Wh/km much more better than if I see (exmple from last trip started 10 km before).
In this moment I have 118 Vs 139 Wh/km. I Know it's not always accurate but in my old LR AWD 2019 I never seen such a difference.
The same is for last 25 km and last 50km (a very high discrepancy )
- I have now 180 km on the odometer and Im at 80% (just supercharged... they gave me the car at delivery at 39%) , I made the Average 50km * expected range / 80% battery and I have only 79 kWh.
It's time to connect SMT (I'll let you knw).
-I hear constantly a noise of fans turning (even now that it's 1 ohour that I'm home) and even a noise like when it' preheating to go supercharger even if I'm not going to supercharger .
Yes the consumption seems very high, much much more than my old 2019 LR AWD.
Just to reply to myself
I connected SMT and I have weird results:
Full Pack When New 82,1
Nominal Full Pack 79,6
How is it possible I'm at 79,6 just after 180 km?
In addition I have 113 kWh charged in AC (in the life of the car) but actually I charged only 55 kWh today at a Supercharger.
AlanSubie4Life
Efficiency Obsessed Member
It happens. Normal is more like 80.6 so you're only 1kWh off. You should see it in the rated range display (which you should always check before signing for the car in my opinion!); you'll be a few km short of the max. There's variability from pack to pack, and it's possible you're just starting off with one of the worse packs.
If it's cold, that could be part of it. You can also try charging to 100% at a Supercharger and it is possible the estimate will adjust a little bit with some time (could go above 80kWh - it's not unusual for it to creep up under such circumstances).
Rated was 505 when i first started the car sliding the cursor on app , now is 500 and in SMT is 502.
Strange is the 113 kWh charged in DC (in the life of the car) but actually I charged only 55 kWh in DC today at a Supercharger.
WHO CHARGED the others 58 kWh in DC ?? The car was with 10 km on the odometer...
It's probably someone at Tesla factory charged in USA at Freemont at 90-100% then in 2 months it decreased to 39 during the ocean trip????
As AlanSubie says, 82.1 is not the real ”full pack when new” when it comes to the use in the car right now.
Tesla seem to limit the pack to a lover charge than 4.2v/cell. I dont remember the exact value but somewhere around 4.185-4.19 V I think. If 100% charge on the screen was 4.20V/cell, It wpuld most likely contain 82.1kwh when new.
In real life, between just below 80 to just above 81 kWh seems Ato be the normal range.
You could probably increase the ”nominal full pack” by letting it balance and also letting the BMS see different values and to learn.
My 82.1-pack showed 80.6kwh when I plugged in the SMT. This was about 1000km from new car due to 1000km drive home.
The full pack when new did increase to 80.7 or 80.8 and then I did charge to 90% for balancing and also charged to ful for a longer trip and saw 81.1kwh. This was my maximum reading.
Now after closer to 6000 km it is down to 80 kwh, which it did slowly day by day decrease to. But since a bit mote than one month I se 80.0 steady. I havent used any special trix since the 81.1-value, just regular charging to mostly 70%.
Thanks, I know what you are saying, I'm a long time Tesla owner and i have SMT since the beginning and I know the variations on Nominal Full pack and the difference with Full pack when new, But Obviously I thank you foe the explanation
The only thing is that I would be more happy to see 80.6 than 79,6 simply.Choose to see 79,6 or 80.6 (like min or max like a normal value....and you would choose the latter LOL .
Has Anyone seen this strange historical charge data on SMT where there are additional kWh charged before you own the car?
I see the car charged allready 113 kWh (in DC) but I charged only 55 kWh today.
then I have the 12V battery all over the place flickering data they are not readable ...not even in D driving .
and I have strange readings also on TRIP (even in D driving):
I didnt check those numbers when connecting SMT first time.
I received the car with 97% charge and had a 1000km drive home. Did supercharge four times, and at one time I arrived with 6%.
Did a couple of slow charges with the 120/230V travel charger that I got with the car, and also one 100% chargebefore a trip when I just connnected SMT.
I guess you both have the need for the BMS to learn, and the battery need to “wake up” when new before you see the higher readings.
Im new to Tesla but Ive used lithium batterys in other apolications, so my experience is not Tesla.
I wouldnt really worry, I guess there so many cells in the pack that the risk of getting a pack that is worse than average is very low. And my guess is that Tesla know how to handle the battery well before delivery. I guess you just need to have a few cycles, and maybe charge to 90% to trigger a balancing session...and then see 80.6 to 81.2kwh.
I started wil Nominal Full Pack of 79.6 and had 80.9 as top value. Only few reach 81-81.5. I haven’t seen any reports of higher readings.
So all normal, except that you say that the consumption is higher than 2019 LR. My M3P 2021 has a significantly lower consumption.
Thank you.
About Full Pack reading you make me feel better.
About consumption I have to say that I'm comparing a 2019 LR AW with 18" (without Aero cover) with the P 2021 with 20" Ubertutbine- both without AC-
BTW, the sensation is that the 2021 is less efficient. I try to explain:
I can define me an "expert" driver (efficiency wise) with good attention to prediction of traffic ahead.
With the 2021 P I see the consumption go HIGH immediately as soon I press the right pedal and it seems LESS efficient on recovering the lost good average going slow or letting OFF the pedal .Say I'm at 170 Wh/km I do a fast overtake and it climbs to 180. (normal... you would say...yes) but (compared to to my old 2019) it doesn't return to 170-172 Wh/km immediately letting off during a long deceleration or driving very slow for long time.
WIth my old 2019 was not important tobe calm with the accelerator (even briefly WOT was OK), it was much more important to not use the brakes.
Here the P 2021 it seems less forgiving . You "pay" the fast acceleration you made to overtake a car for many kilometers even if you go very slow.
Another strange thing is the diffference on consumption on Energy screen compared to the normal screen .
If the Energy screen consumption says i'm performing an average of 150 Wh/km (on the last 10km/average) and on "new trip" or "since last charge" i made exactly 10 km , here I see 180. My old LR was very smilar on both readings (sometimes just more sometimes just less).
The fact is that the Battery is decreasing the displayed km (when in distance and not in %) accordingly with the average consumpion on the little windows on the bottom left corner, not on the Energy screen.
I would guess you need to also check the battery temperature to do a proper check between as the temperature might affect the SOC reading ?
My M3P '21 had cell volt average 4.18V@100% SOC (with cell voltage max 4.19V and min 4.18V) Cell temps average 16.75C. This was after first balancing at 90% and then fully charge for a trip reaching 81.1kwh nominal remaining/nominal full pack. I use Iphone so I only see hundreds on the SMT-app.
I am quite sure the 82.1 kwh "marked size" comes from the nominal full at 4.20V/cell, as thats the standard for these lithium batteries.
Each 1/100 of Volt change is about 1%. If we play witht the thought that my cells de facto was 4.185V / cell (middle between min and max) there should be around 1.5% more capacity if it did charge to 4.200V, which sums up to 82.3kWh. Actually, if the voltage was 4.188 the math gives 82.1kWh.
This was when my M3P was only two weeks since I got it, and slighty above 1000km. I think the battery hade woken up and actually was on top.
We would expect the 77.8kWh pack to read 4.10-4.12V at 90%, I guess.
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I am comparing 18 inch with covers on the LR with 18 inch T sportline on the 2021 P. The P is about 10% more efficient.
For the LR, the 20 inch summer set costs around 10%. With the P, the difference is roughly 5%. Probably because the set on the LR has 245 Michelin PS4S, a more open design and the same ET value, which means that on the LR they will be 5 mm more out, hence less aerodynamic.
If the P continues to be less efficient, I would have it checked at. For instance an alignment that is somewhat off can make a big difference. Had that once myself, and that gave a hit of around 20% in efficiency.
20% difference in efficiency for an alignement? do you mean toe-in toe-out ? or even camber?
My car seems good it goes straight really straight.
I was ready to an "harsh" ride with 20" and /35 tires, and lowered suspensions. I was ready for a more "difficult to ride" car a car where you need more skill , not less skill ... but Im surprised that i feel it more "soft" and more simple to drive than my old 18" with /45 tires.
I was avoiding all little potholes on road with LR with 18". Now with the P sincerely I feel less stiff suspensions.
Many peoples complains that the P is harsh ...too rigid too stiff and that you feel all the grain of sand on the road.
...this is absolutely NOT true (on my car) and in a way I feel a bit disappointed because I was ready for a more sporty ride, giving back some comfort.
Not always I "feel" the steering in a good sincere way like the LR with 18" and this is strange.
I have to say that It has no body roll, but I was expecting more stiffer suspensions, and the fact that I feel "softer" than the LR with 18 make me feel strange.
Yes , I can do a same turn in a faster way than before , but I can'T feel the limit, I can't feel that the limit is near or just some km/h over.
When you usually are approaching to the limit of grip, you "feel" the nature (sporty or just touring) of the car. And I feel the P less sporty of the LR and that "feeling" (approaching to the grip limit) is felt usually at stering wheel .
This car make the turns at 80 km/h like you usually do normal turns at 40. It's too sipmple... too much simple , and this remove fun.
I hope You get the picture/idea.
My car seems good it goes straight really straight.
I was ready to an "harsh" ride with 20" and /35 tires, and lowered suspensions. I was ready for a more "difficult to ride" car a car where you need more skill , not less skill ... but Im surprised that i feel it more "soft" and more simple to drive than my old 18" with /45 tires.
I was avoiding all little potholes on road with LR with 18". Now with the P sincerely I feel less stiff suspensions.
Many peoples complains that the P is harsh ...too rigid too stiff and that you feel all the grain of sand on the road.
...this is absolutely NOT true (on my car) and in a way I feel a bit disappointed because I was ready for a more sporty ride, giving back some comfort.
Not always I "feel" the steering in a good sincere way like the LR with 18" and this is strange.
I have to say that It has no body roll, but I was expecting more stiffer suspensions, and the fact that I feel "softer" than the LR with 18 make me feel strange.
Yes , I can do a same turn in a faster way than before , but I can'T feel the limit, I can't feel that the limit is near or just some km/h over.
When you usually are approaching to the limit of grip, you "feel" the nature (sporty or just touring) of the car. And I feel the P less sporty of the LR and that "feeling" (approaching to the grip limit) is felt usually at stering wheel .
This car make the turns at 80 km/h like you usually do normal turns at 40. It's too sipmple... too much simple , and this remove fun.
I hope You get the picture/idea.
Any particular procedure to trigger the balancing? Yes to 90% but i'ts better at AC or DC. And what to do when at 90%? Let it connected ? remove the connector and go immediately for a ride? Or stay few hours (connected or not) at 90% without using it?
(I saw rebalancing only at 100% when still connected when at supercharger it continues to charge at 2 o r 3 kW but it never ends until 30 or 40 mins later that it indicates 100%.
I have to search an old printscreen of SMT when a day at 100% on my old LR AWD with a Pana 77,8 kWh.
Quite sure it was 4.195 mV
Let it rest(sleep) for at least three hours.
Charger connected but it shouldnt matter really. Balancing is built in via resistors connecting the cells and thereby automatic by the battery itself.
The balancing wouldnt be the first thing to get the battery size up I think. Some cycles where you go a bit lower than short trip and charge, say at least below 40-50% soc and charge to 90% or more.
I guess a full charge also would be good, when it comes to the BMS to learn about the battery. Remember: Whats good for the BMS battery data isnt necessary the best for the battery. From my other experience from using lithium batterys, they might need a few cycles to wake up when new.
You have SMT, right? You can see the cell imbalance in SMT and I think 4 mV is quite ok, for values up to 90-95%. Thats after charging and resting. If the imbalance is low theres no need for balancing.
If you charge to or close to 100% you probably see the imbalance increase to maybe 10-12mV or maybe more. I you then had left it at 100% the imbalance would have decreased by the balancing process, but I would not keep my battery at 100% for long times so charging to 90% or just above will ne my personal limit for balancing.
It would have been nice to know about another M3P’ BMS values when new with not much miles driven. I guess its quite standard for the BMS to show a little less kWh when completely new. I dont know because of the 1000km drive home that also most probably both woke my battery up and got the BMS time to learn.
SMT shows 8 mV imbalance at 80% .
I have to say that I have only 230 km at the odometer.
8mV isnt that much and it wouldnt be the reason to low nominal full pack.
If we play with the math, and one lone cell is 8mV higher in SOC than all other, the pack would loose the storage for 8mV on all other cells, thats about 0.8%, or about 0.65kwh....if all other cells was 8mV lower than the highest. Irl the average probably is in the middle and thus some 0.3kWh.
Also, as we are carefull not to live the battery for long at 100% SOC, we anyhow will have some imbalance, and accounting for this, we probably dont have more loss than 0.3kwh I guess.
They say balancing only happens if SOC is 90% or more. I dont know the setup of the balancing resistors, if the the battery connector open these circuits. I know I did read that Model S and X had balaning resistors with much lower resistanse, causing higher balancing current and shorter balancing time( but more drain).
I guess you only need to ”wake the battery ” and learn the BMS as we said, some cycles, not too shallow, and at least one charge to 90% with time for balaning afterwards and if you dare, one completely full charge.
Otherwise, just use it as you will and it most probable will be good anyway. (Remember, whats good for the BMS and the readings isnt necessarily best for the battery).
I see mostly 4mV at 70-80% but If I charge to 90 it probably is more in the beginning and after some hours rest I have seen 4mV at 90 also. My full charge did say 10mV imbalance, but I drove away asap after reaching 100%.
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