MASTER THREAD: 2021 Model 3 - Charge data, battery discussion etc

[AAKEE]

So, I did tre similar drives today. I anyway had to do two of them.

Its a 9,5 km drive, 3km at 60km/h then 4km in town, and then back. 16 minutes run time.

First one, the M3 in the garage since more than 24hrs. +13C In the garage. -3C outside, 8:45 in the morning.
After 3km approaching the town, the consumption was down to 160Wh/km which it kept close to until deceleration to stop at home.
154wh/km, battery was 12.5C when arriving at home. didnt check before, but as >24h in the garage without any charger connected.

Second one, car hade been left ouside for 4hrs. Temp 1-2C, battery temp was 8,5C before. The cabin was not that cold, the sun was heating a bit.
After 3km, approaching the town, consumption was 160wh/km.
151wh/km, battery temp 8,5C when back home. Battery power when parked back at home, 0.6-0.7kW.
This ride was a little shorter as my doughter started walking toWards home so pickup was a bit closer, partly another way.

Third drive 9pm, car had been left outside for > 7 more hours. -2 outside. Battery temp 5,5C. The cabin was cold. I could hear and feel the heatpump when I started up the car. Some 3Kw batteery power, but I did not stay to check as I tried to keep the runs similar.
After 3km, approaching the town the consumption was 215 wh/km.
190wh/km. battery temp 5.5C. The battery power was 1.1 to 1.2kW When back parked. I think the heating of the cabin was completed/reached the set 20.5C temp a few minutes before arriving at home.

The increased consumption is 36Wh/km, or 342Wh more in total compared to the morning run. The extra power was 1.282W On average.
Compared to the morning run, the tyre pressure started some 0.15Bar lower(10C = about 0.1bar). The cabin was cold and needed to be heated from -2 to 20.5C.

 

[Redbug]

Teslaclubsweden

Link is from thread start.

In Sweden the price diff is only 40K SEK(about the same in NOK?). I Dont really like the stock _LR rim/Aero cap that much so I had anyway gone 20”, and the delta in cost just covers a nice set of 20” wheels.

Yup. Its just 50k difference... so makes it an easier choice.

Thanks for the link!

 

[clerks]

If money is not really much of an issue I would get Performance, due to its better capacity. That is a new benefit of getting Performance

Forgive me if I’m late to the party on this. I have a 2021 M3P. Is the extra capacity translating into actual increased range on the M3P? I’ve been pretty disappointed in my range thus far although I am running 20s and it’s been winter mostly since I’ve owned it. I have not conducted any real testing. I’m afraid it will lead me down a rabbit hole where I am constantly worried about it.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Is the extra capacity translating into actual increased range on the M3P? I’ve been pretty disappointed in my range thus far although I am running 20s and it’s been winter mostly since I’ve owned it. I have not conducted any real testing. I’m afraid it will lead me down a rabbit hole where I am constantly worried about it.

Yes, it will translate, all else being equal. You need to equip your wheels with equivalent wheels and tires capable of low rolling resistance and good aerodynamic performance (look for wheels designed for EVs), which fit the Performance (correct offset and width, etc.), in order to make your vehicle the "range king."

Even with the extra energy, you'll never be able to do the same range as the LR with the sticky 20s. Because they're sticky. (They also help you stop much more quickly though, so don't give them too hard a time for this.)

Basically it'll give you about 8-9 more miles at freeway speeds to have the extra 3kWh of energy, all else being equal. But you have to be comparing two vehicles with the same wheels (the aero cover wheels don't fit the Performance unless you're willing to shave down your rear brake calipers and use a thin spacer).

Definitely don't do any range testing. Expect about 230 miles, maybe a little more, on a full charge on the freeway (assuming you're driving 80mph). Previously with the Performance vehicles, you could have expected about 220 miles.

 

[clerks]

Yes, it will translate, all else being equal. You need to equip your wheels with equivalent wheels and tires capable of low rolling resistance and good aerodynamic performance (look for wheels designed for EVs), which fit the Performance (correct offset and width, etc.), in order to make your vehicle the "range king."

Even with the extra energy, you'll never be able to do the same range as the LR with the sticky 20s. Because they're sticky. (They also help you stop much more quickly though, so don't give them too hard a time for this.)

Basically it'll give you about 8-9 more miles at freeway speeds to have the extra 3kWh of energy, all else being equal. But you have to be comparing two vehicles with the same wheels (the aero cover wheels don't fit the Performance unless you're willing to shave down your rear brake calipers and use a thin spacer).

Definitely don't do any range testing. Expect about 230 miles, maybe a little more, on a full charge on the freeway (assuming you're driving 80mph). Previously with the Performance vehicles, you could have expected about 220 miles.

Thanks. Based on my recent warm weather guesstimating 220 to 230 seems about right. Range testing strikes me as a bad idea as i tend to obsess about these things.

 

[panpan1]

If money is not really much of an issue I would get Performance, due to its better capacity. That is a new benefit of getting Performance (which is probably only temporary, but it does exist currently).

Yep.
Of course: Tesla could start delivering a higher capacity battery for the LR in the future which would reduce the value proposition that the Performance currently provides.

So keep an eye on the current state of knowledge up until delivery. It will be very easy to determine when LRs ship with the higher capacity batteries.

But for now, 10% more energy (or even 5%) as a starting point is quite a substantial difference. People complain when their batteries lose 10% capacity. With Performance, when/if you lose that capacity (it is quite possible), you’ll be where you would have started with LR. Which is good. (Assuming of course that these new 2170L cells have similar capacity loss characteristics to the old 2170 cells!)

But if range is not an issue for you this is of course less important. So if you are ok with 150 miles (240km) between Superchargers rather than 165 (265km) (typically not a make-or-break difference, but it does depend on conditions!), it doesn’t really matter that much. Just nice to have a little extra margin in my opinion. Helps with capacity loss, etc. Great to have extra capacity with no significant added weight.

(As has been mentioned you WILL have to invest more money in appropriate wheels (winter or all-weather) which will have good range characteristics and fit over the brakes, as compared to the OEM equipment. But the energy advantage is still there. You just have to change the equipment to make good use of it. This can be done for a little under $2k (at least in the US).)

Why do you say "If money is not really much of an issue I would get Performance, due to its better capacity. That is a new benefit of getting Performance (which is probably only temporary, but it does exist currently)."? Are you aware of an upcoming change to switch the LR to the P battery/capacity?

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Are you aware of an upcoming change to switch the LR to the P battery/capacity?

There are rumors that is all. I was just pointing out that this sort of thing can change and it is good for prospective owners to pay attention to what might happen in future and adjust buying decisions appropriately.

I assume at some point all 2170 cell lines will be switched over to the more dense 2170L, since it is simpler logistically and they’re better and actually improve factory efficiency, but if there is some downside to them, maybe not. And they could of course remove 96x2 cells (44x96) from future packs to compensate (I think max current requirements would not be a concern for AWD with that change but not sure). Hard to know.

 

[AAKEE]

Why do you say "If money is not really much of an issue I would get Performance, due to its better capacity. That is a new benefit of getting Performance (which is probably only temporary, but it does exist currently)."? Are you aware of an upcoming change to switch the LR to the P battery/capacity?

The only reason that Tesla still use the old battery would be lack of the new cell.

In Eu Tesla delivers LR with both the old cell( 2170. ”C”), and also with LG cells which should be done only due to lack of
The certification pappers did recently get preparation for having the new 2170L cell( 82.1 kWh) in the LR.

So, it will come to the LR some day.

 

[eivissa]

For me the 2021.4.11 Update remains quite a game changer for the 2021 Performance, but...there are still moments when several conditions collide and you have a very...very! slow car.

-I have had quite a long round trip with my 2021 Performance yesterday with OAT around 2-4°C.
-Before starting my final leg home I had a planned stopover of 30 minutes.
-I settled to park the car with only 10% SoC, what I wouldnt do over night, but I knew that a DC charger along my route home wasnt far away.
-The 30 minutes turned out to be 3-4 hours, but when departing the battery was still at 16°C cell temp and the SoC still at 10%.
-2021.4.12 has virtually no vampire drain for me. Absolutely perfect!
-1 km before reaching the DC Charger along the Autobahn I was at 5% SoC and cell temp at 19°C.
-Attempting to overtake a lorry I could not accelerate past 100kph. The power was peaking at just below 44KW. Minimum voltage full trottle @ 275V
-I dont want to image how that situation would have been before the 2021.4.11 update and voltage limit of high 295V!
-I have to emphasize again, that this is an unusual situation to be at low SoC with a "cold'ish" battery, but with some unforeseen things during the day, you can actually find yourself in that situation.
-100kph still gets you to were you want to go, but it doesnt feel great, I can asure you that ;-)
-No pre-conditioning 5% SoC / 19°C in the pack and the DC charger went straight up to 173KW, so this was a nice surprice!

-Reaching my hometown later on -> 9% SoC / 37°C cell temp -> 180KW Power @ full throttle. Just to end with something positive ;-)

 

[AAKEE]

For me the 2021.4.11 Update remains quite a game changer for the 2021 Performance, but...there are still moments when several conditions collide and you have a very...very! slow car.

Very good post!

I did go down to 6% in cold weather as I’ve written before. One big difference, I was heading for the SuC both times, and the heated battery will have much lower internal resistance. So the issue is masked. I’m not worried that much anyway, with below 10%, I will not race and in most cases I will be heading (and close to) a SuC(= preheating). Or very close to home.

Cobalt is for the lithium battery as the nitro is for the fuel when we are talking power so the low cobalt solution most logically will show some drawbacks.
Low cobalt generally means lower currents and in this case I think we see the drawback now. Looks like the carefull approach we supposed Tesla had might have been true due to the earlier min voltage limit. But now it seems taken away and that we see the real capacity of the 2170L. One important thing one should not forget: power is limited and reduced on all batterys at low SOC, so if you do the same thing with an older M3P you will also have reduced power. Probably not as much but we are not talking about 44kW in the refresh and 400kW in the old one.

 

[Redbug]

There are rumors that is all. I was just pointing out that this sort of thing can change and it is good for prospective owners to pay attention to what might happen in future and adjust buying decisions appropriately.

I assume at some point all 2170 cell lines will be switched over to the more dense 2170L, since it is simpler logistically and they’re better and actually improve factory efficiency, but if there is some downside to them, maybe not. And they could of course remove 96x2 cells (44x96) from future packs to compensate (I think max current requirements would not be a concern for AWD with that change but not sure). Hard to know.

I just ordered M3P and if i understand the order confirmation correctly they are selling me an LR and upgrading it for 40K Norwegian Krones. I guess they have already started the 'change' you are talking about here in Norway. No more LG battery for LR here perhaps?

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

I just ordered M3P and if i understand the order confirmation correctly they are selling me an LR and upgrading it for 40K Norwegian Krones. I guess they have already started the 'change' you are talking about here in Norway. No more LG battery for LR here perhaps?

No, that's not how I would interpret that. That's just the standard way Tesla describes their builds; Performance is an add-on on top of AWD. I don't think it says anything one way or the other about whether the change will happen with these shipments.

 

[AAKEE]

I just ordered M3P and if i understand the order confirmation correctly they are selling me an LR and upgrading it for 40K Norwegian Krones. I guess they have already started the 'change' you are talking about here in Norway. No more LG battery for LR here perhaps?

Nope. Alansubie is right,

The Performance is per definition a Long Range also, big battery.

In your order there is a real M3 Performance. Pricing in the order is put like you begin with a LR and ad on stuff, but thats obly to show you what you will get.
It looked the same for me, and I also got unsure for a moment when I ordered a Performance and the order confirmation said Long Range Performance.

Dont worry - Be happy



D**n, price is good !
I should have bought my in Norway !

 

[AAKEE]

It would be interresting to see the difference of ”temperature efficiency” in teslafi between a non heatpump/octovalve M3 and a refresh.
I have only used teslafi for a few weeks yet, but there still is a line that give some info about -5 to 0C, 0 to +5 c and 5 to +10C.
The actual values will differ depending on the type of driving and speed etc, but we can probably see a steeper inclination on the line on the non refresh.

 

[DrLOAC]

2021 M3 LR late March 2021 delivery O254 miles

Full charge brought it to 354miles of range.

I noticed it never “finished” charging. Just said kept saying 30minutes left while charge amps slowly dropped from 32 to 7 until I unplugged.

I’m now thinking that was the BMS doing a calibration and I should have left it.

Can anyone point me to a charging best practices post?

 

[TimothyHW3]

I’m now thinking that was the BMS doing a calibration and I should have left it.

Can anyone point me to a charging best practices post?

You should've left it until it says finished.

Yes, check the "how I got back my range" thread.

Basically two things to avoid. Don't charge to 100% a lot and unless you drive it down to below 90% right away.

Don't overuse sentry mode - let the car sleep so it can calculate the range.

Make sure to don't charge only in the higher 50%-90% range, but let it go to 10%-20%.

But the most important is to let the car sleep at different state of charge. Sentry prevents sleeping.

 

[conv90]

Is it normal that DURING CHARGE the volts are very high?
I reached 4.200 at 91%
BTW my car (2021 Perfomance model) has 650 km now and it started with 79.6 of Nominal full Pack and it's always 79,6 Nominal Full pack (never 79.5 , never 79,7). stuck at 79,6 kWh
Yesterday I charged to 93 % (returned home at 89%) and this morning the imbalace is 4-6 millivolts. Always 79,6 kWh of Nominal Full Pack.
I was expecting (not for the 90% charge, not for the 4-6 mV imbalance) to see some improvement of Full Pack as the car "ages" a bit.

 

[AAKEE]

Is it normal that DURING CHARGE the volts are very high?
I reached 4.200 at 91%
BTW my car (2021 Perfomance model) has 650 km now and it started with 79.6 of Nominal full Pack and it's always 79,6 Nominal Full pack (never 79.5 , never 79,7). stuck at 79,6 kWh
Yesterday I charged to 93 % (returned home at 89%) and this morning the imbalace is 4-6 millivolts. Always 79,6 kWh of Nominal Full Pack.
I was expecting (not for the 90% charge, not for the 4-6 mV imbalance) to see some improvement of Full Pack as the car "ages" a bit.

Was it during supercharging ?

From what source did you get the 4.200V cell voltage?
If it was during supercharging, and maybe not preheated its possible to understand that the supply voltage reached 4.2V.

Also if the battery is very cold I think we can se a possibility for the voltage to raise early.

It seems a bit strange. If Scan my Tesla you van also find battery package voltage and 403V = 100% SOC

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Is it normal that DURING CHARGE the volts are very high?
I reached 4.200 at 91%

What did it settle to when you stopped charging?

I wouldn’t be surprised by a much higher voltage when charging if you are charging at a high rate. The battery has internal resistance after all, and that works both ways (raising voltage when charging). There are also probably longer timescale effects caused by rate-limited processes in the cells during charging, so it may not even settle completely, immediately after stopping charging (not sure).

At this point I would not expect much improvement in your full pack value - assuming you’ve already done the test of warming it up to high temp and leaving it to charge to 100% and complete charging at a Supercharger (or at home *maybe* if you have a warm garage). Generally the trend in capacity is going to be down, not up!

 

[TimothyHW3]

I think he is using the iOS Scan my Tesla version which is very buggy and for whatever reason rounds up to 2 digits after comma.