MASTER THREAD: 2021 Model 3 - Charge data, battery discussion etc

[kadettilac]

That's some weird data. Seems like something is being reported wrong (or in a confusing fashion), if I know anything about how averages work . Maybe someone familiar with SMT could elaborate on what the problem is.

I get the impression it makes a difference on the reported data in SMT if the car is turned on by hitting the brake and if it's in gear or not. Looks like not all data starts flowing over the can bus when you get in but don't hit the brake to turn the car on and even more starts coming/gets updated when you put it in gear. For that screenshot, I doubt I turned it on, but I'd need to check my assumptions. Or hear from an SMT expert

PS I'll try and remember to use multiquote next time

 

[AAKEE]

The only clear analogy we have really are the SR vehicles and other Tesla vehicles that do not use the entire pack capacity. And on those vehicles they (with the rather extensive and complicated caveat described above) degrade as soon as the actual full pack capacity degrades below any "degradation threshold" that might exist.

Ok, didnt know that they didnt use full capacity on the SR. Strange...

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Ok, didnt know that they didnt use full capacity on the SR. Strange...

SR uses the same pack as the SR+, for Model 3 (for Model Y there is only the SR AFAIK...).

 

[AAKEE]

SR uses the same pack as the SR+, for Model 3 (for Model Y there is only the SR AFAIK...).

Ahh, so to get different range they cap it on the SR ?

 

[TimothyHW3]

I confirm that 1104423-00-T is a reference of a "82 kWh" pack identified in model 3 Performance

What was the other variant from the "real" 82 P from France? 0L something?

 

[kadettilac]

CB 1104423-00-T ?

Yes, you're 100% correct! I just took a few pics and it is indeed the CB 1104423-00-T (didn't get is sharp in one pic, so attached is a combined set)

What remains is to keep an eye on the pack and see if any of the 8% locked capacity is released by Tesla over time/fw updates. Just to double check I'll read the cell values at 100% SOC UI with my Android SMT as well somewhere over the next few week, because of the low cell voltage values I got yesterday with the iOS app.

Many thanks to all of the members here who helped out with their knowledge, I learned a lot about the different packs! If there's anything I can do to help by providing data from my car, just let me know. In the mean time, I'll enjoy my unicorn of a car until the pack becomes mainstream in EU LR's

 

[TimothyHW3]

Yes, you're 100% correct! I just took a few pics and it is indeed the CB 1104423-00-T (didn't get is sharp in one pic, so attached is a combined set)

What remains is to keep an eye on the pack and see if any of the 8% locked capacity is released by Tesla over time/fw updates. Just to double check I'll read the cell values at 100% SOC UI with my Android SMT as well somewhere over the next few week, because of the low cell voltage values I got yesterday with the iOS app.

Many thanks to all of the members here who helped out with their knowledge, I learned a lot about the different packs! If there's anything I can do to help by providing data from my car, just let me know. In the mean time, I'll enjoy my unicorn of a car until the pack becomes mainstream in EU LR's

You should unplug and wait a couple of minutes after charging to read the cell voltage properly. Switch to the ALL Tab and see what it says.

 

[kadettilac]

You should unplug and wait a couple of minutes after charging to read the cell voltage properly. Switch to the ALL Tab and see what it says.

That might be it, because the last time I took the readings it was still connected to my AC charger. Will do next time I charge to 100% UI

 

[FredMt]

What was the other variant from the "real" 82 P from France? 0L something?

Yes, CB 1104423-0L-P. It s was first 82kWh pack found in performance model.

 

[FredMt]

I'll enjoy my unicorn of a car until the pack becomes mainstream in EU LR's

Yes, enjoy you have perhaps the first LR with 82kWh pack in the world !

 

[Devils son]

Yes, you're 100% correct! I just took a few pics and it is indeed the CB 1104423-00-T (didn't get is sharp in one pic, so attached is a combined set)

What remains is to keep an eye on the pack and see if any of the 8% locked capacity is released by Tesla over time/fw updates. Just to double check I'll read the cell values at 100% SOC UI with my Android SMT as well somewhere over the next few week, because of the low cell voltage values I got yesterday with the iOS app.

Many thanks to all of the members here who helped out with their knowledge, I learned a lot about the different packs! If there's anything I can do to help by providing data from my car, just let me know. In the mean time, I'll enjoy my unicorn of a car until the pack becomes mainstream in EU LR's

I would be surprised if Tesla did, because it won’t bring them anything but grief from those that got the LG.

Would only make sense as a paid for option, and even that would mean M3LR with LG battery owners might get pissed off.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

(and if Tesla does any capacity unlocks on Performance packs over time, you'll have to account for any impact those may have, as well)

I would be surprised

I would be too. I only made the comment about unlocking because this is an unusual situation where there is a Performance pack in an AWD vehicle. And how to account for it in his capacity loss observations. So if for some reason Tesla allows Performance packs to actually charge to 82.1kWh at some point, or future AWDs start being delivered with the pack he has, what is going to happen to him?

Currently, for him:
Nominal Full Pack: 79.6kWh (different than normal AWD which are 77.8kWh I think? But maybe soon they will be different?)
100% UI: 73.5kWh (SoC 92% = (73.5kWh-0.045*79.6kWh)/(0.955*79.6kWh))

Will his Nominal Full Pack go to 82.1kWh if Performance packs voltage limits (if any - I'm not following this too closely but my recollection is there is a voltage limit on them right now, @eivissa can correct me if I'm wrong) are adjusted?

And then his 100% UI will stay at 73.5kWh and his SoC for that will be (73.5-0.045*82.1kWh)/(0.955*82.1kWh) = 89%?

Or maybe the next set of AWDs will all have the 2170L pack, and be delivered with 79.6kWh nominal full pack which is allowed to charge to 100% SoC, and since he has one too, he'll get increased range along with all the new deliveries (assuming they do as well)?

I don't see Tesla unlocking previously delivered 77.8kWh packs, for the reasons you mention, but if in future they deliver AWDs only with 79.6kWh nominal full pack (or 82.1kWh full packs), there's nothing really stopping them from giving more range to those owners than earlier purchasers. It's one of the benefits of waiting to purchase - things usually get better.

All hard to know!

 

[Phlier]

I only made the comment about unlocking because this is an unusual situation where there is a Performance pack in an AWD vehicle.

Aw, man... I stop reading the in-depth battery threads for a few (ok, six) months, and now I'm really feeling out of touch.

I have a 2019 Stealth Performance. For that model year, was there a difference between the LR AWD packs, and the Performance packs? I was thinking they were the same pack this whole time! If so, did the Stealth cars have the LR AWD packs, or the full Performance packs??

 

[Devils son]

Aw, man... I stop reading the in-depth battery threads for a few (ok, six) months, and now I'm really feeling out of touch.

I have a 2019 Stealth Performance. For that model year, was there a difference between the LR AWD packs, and the Performance packs? I was thinking they were the same pack this whole time! If so, did the Stealth cars have the LR AWD packs, or the full Performance packs??

Back then there was only one pack.

Now there are 3 packs: old pana, new pana (82.1 full when new, but nominal full anywhere between 79 and 81 kWh, because Tesla keeps a buffer on top now) and LG.

In the US only pana is used.

In the EU they use both LG and pana. To keep them equal, pana’s are softlocked to match kWh of LG.

And from MY2021 the performance model gets an unlocked 82.1 kWh, which is at best an 81 kWh. Both in US and EU.

So MY2021 Long Range in EU has less capacity than the US. Performance has the same.

All because Panasonic can’t keep up. When that is solved, no doubt all will get an unlocked 82.1 delivered.

But I doubt Tesla will unlock the once that were locked.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

So MY2021 Long Range in EU has less capacity than the US. Performance has the same.

In addition in this case this was an AWD 2021 with the normal 77.8kWh pack (not the LG), which got a replacement performance 82.1kWh pack.

Which makes for a bit of a chimera. But it may not be that uncommon in future. Whether he would get an unlock in future (in the event new AWDs get the 82.1kWh pack and it is unlocked for new owners) is less clear. Since his car is capable of it, but it was not purchased that way. And it also depends on whether Tesla even bothers unlocking capacity in future. Eventually they will of course.

 

[eivissa]

Will his Nominal Full Pack go to 82.1kWh if Performance packs voltage limits (if any - I'm not following this too closely but my recollection is there is a voltage limit on them right now, @eivissa can correct me if I'm wrong) are adjusted?

I am still not sure. My guess is, that there is no SW lock on the 82kWh.

This is my last charge to 100%. It goes up to 80.9-81.0kWh Nominal Remaining and cell voltage...well you see it there.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

I am still not sure. My guess is, that there is no SW lock on the 82kWh.

This is my last charge to 100%. It goes up to 80.9-81.0kWh Nominal Remaining and cell voltage...well you see it there.View attachment 653771

This 82.1kWh is truly a mystery. It’s what you would expect for a 5.5% increase. Perhaps it is a Tesla aspirational goal, or what they thought they would get with the new cells and they’ll never get there. Or maybe they expect to be able to charge these to a slightly higher voltage than prior cells, eventually.

Instead, you get ~4%.

 

[eivissa]

This 82.1kWh is truly a mystery. It’s what you would expect for a 5.5% increase. Perhaps it is a Tesla aspirational goal, or what they thought they would get with the new cells and they’ll never get there. Or maybe they expect to be able to charge these to a slightly higher voltage than prior cells, eventually.

Instead, you get ~4%.

Well, why would you expect more than 4%?

• The individual cells have had a bump of capacity by 4.1% (4.8Ah vs 5.0Ah)
• The total amount of cells remained the same (n=4416)
• 77.8 x 1.041% is exactly 81kWh!

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

why would you expect more than 4%?

I don't really "expect" any particular value; but 1) the (quite unreliable) media widely reported "about 5%", obviously an approximate value, and 2) The FPWN value is 82.1kWh, which is oddly precise, but which is 5.5% higher than 77.8kWh - obviously we all understand these are hard-coded arbitrary values and don't represent actual pack capacity. But still...

That's all. I don't really expect anything. Just trying to make sense of why they would have picked 82.1kWh as the hard-coded value, since historically packs have charged to "nominal full pack" just ABOVE (or at least extremely close to) the hard-coded FPWN value they chose. If that hadn't been the history, I'd just say, "this is like normal, packs don't charge to their FPWN value."

Tesla confirms new 82 kWh battery pack in Model 3, thanks to new cells

Tesla has confirmed that its new 2021 Model 3 vehicles are now equipped with a new 82 kWh battery pack...

electrek.co

I should add that "capacity of the cell" you listed is just two significant digits, so it's not able to resolve a number between 1.04 and 1.05 (each three significant digits). If they had listed 5.00 and 4.80 then it might be more convincing. Also, these are just numbers (just like FPWN - though that has three significant digits ).

It is what it is, though! All the evidence so far suggests about a 4% increase is what was achieved, and for all we know that was the design target. (Which again, makes me wonder about the 82.1kWh value. )

 

[eivissa]

I don't really "expect" any particular value; but 1) the (quite unreliable) media widely reported "about 5%", obviously an approximate value, and 2) The FPWN value is 82.1kWh, which is oddly precise, but which is 5.5% higher than 77.8kWh - obviously we all understand these are hard-coded arbitrary values and don't represent actual pack capacity. But still...

That's all. I don't really expect anything. Just trying to make sense of why they would have picked 82.1kWh as the hard-coded value, since historically packs have charged to "nominal full pack" just ABOVE (or at least extremely close to) the hard-coded FPWN value they chose. If that hadn't been the history, I'd just say, "this is like normal, packs don't charge to their FPWN value."

Tesla confirms new 82 kWh battery pack in Model 3, thanks to new cells

Tesla has confirmed that its new 2021 Model 3 vehicles are now equipped with a new 82 kWh battery pack...

electrek.co

I should add that "capacity of the cell" you listed is just two significant digits, so it's not able to resolve a number between 1.04 and 1.05 (each three significant digits). If they had listed 5.00 and 4.80 then it might be more convincing. Also, these are just numbers (just like FPWN - though that has three significant digits ).

It is what it is, though! All the evidence so far suggests about a 4% increase is what was achieved, and for all we know that was the design target. (Which again, makes me wonder about the 82.1kWh value. )

I remember that article and thought the 82kWh that showed up in the German papers verified it exactly, but the real gain seams to be 4.1%. Still something in the right direction...in comparison to the current Long Range Situation!

If there is any systematic to be found I would say that whatever Tesla reported to the authorities in Germany minus 1kWh is what these batterys can actually charge to.

-> Seen a user in Germany getting Nominal Remaining to 75.9kWh.

-> Seen a user in Germany getting Nominal Remaining to 77.9kWh.

-> Seen my own Nominal Remaining going up to 81.0kWh.

The last/top kWh might be reachable if all cells went excactly to 4.2V which is unrealistic I guess.

Again...this is just another theory!