MASTER THREAD: 2021 Model 3 - Charge data, battery discussion etc

[AlanSubie4Life]

I have kept SoC always about 77% - 88%

It seems like the general consensus here is that if you don't need more than 70%, basically every day, including the days when you do a bit more driving, then you should just set that to be the limit (or 60% if it works for you). I have no idea whether it actually helps, but it doesn't seem like there is any harm in lowering it, if you don't need the extra charge (has the advantage that you'll have no problems with regen, until it gets really cold). If you start encountering situations where you're wondering whether you are going to make it home, or have to charge on the go, definitely increase the charge level. No one wants to use public chargers (at least I don't...it's one of the biggest benefits of EVs!).

When you do the 100% range and note the mileage at 100% as suggested above, could you please be sure to also redo the energy screen calc (just as a crosscheck)? 100% charges often do result in a few km adjustments to rated range, so going to 520+km wouldn't be surprising, but just want to make sure the energy screen follows as expected.

 

[AAKEE]

It seems like the general consensus here is that if you don't need more than 70%, basically every day, including the days when you do a bit more driving, then you should just set that to be the limit (or 60% if it works for you). I have no idea whether it actually helps,

We can be quite sure that charging to a lower SOC helps. From all research reports that have tested Panasonics NCA-cells we more or less know this.
Charge to lower SOC =less calendar aging.
Also, smaller discharge cycles wear much less when it comes to cyclic aging.

BTW, my NFP climbed some 0.1 per day or two when we had slightly lower temps for a week( topping about 20-23C on the day) so Im at 80.5 kWh since a couple of days.
Two days ago the weather got better and now we’re topping 30C. The NFP is still at 80.5, but I guess it will go lower in the heat.

I found teslafi (must) use the temperature efficiency curve to produce the teslafi reported range. Theres not a clear connection between the NFP and the range. Even if the NFP goes down the range can go up.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

We can be quite sure that charging to a lower SOC helps.

Sure, I guess I should have made that clear. It definitely helps, but it's less clear whether it will actually have any effect on the actual rate of capacity loss for Tesla users in any substantive way (we don't know what the dominant factors / contributors are for Tesla packs). Of course in general Tesla packs will behave as any other lithium cell, but we just don't know what causes capacity loss as measured by the BMS. There doesn't seem to be a clear connection or correlation between user behaviors and capacity loss observed. Certainly age and mileage matter a lot. But it's less clear whether the SOC average over that time period strongly determines the result.

Precautionary principle says you use lower SOC if you can, though.

 

[Matt125]

I'm in the UK and I have a Model 3 Long Range on order, estimated delivery in September.

I'm currently driving a 2019 SR+ which I've had on a 2 year lease, collection in September, so the new car will be a big step up on what I've already got, but the new car will be mine on a loan. I'd hate to think that I had been short changed with a lower capacity battery compared to what some others are getting.

We don't get the detailed delivery docs in the UK that the Germans and the French get - is ScanMyTesla the only other way of knowing what the battery is? When Tesla call me to schedule the delivery date I will tell them I won't take delivery of the car unless it is the Panasonic battery, or a higher capacity LG from what has come before...

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

- is ScanMyTesla the only other way of knowing what the battery is?

The energy screen method provides the minimum value of the degradation threshold and the actual capacity (so will typically give you the degradation threshold for a new vehicle).

So that would rule out some possibilities before you sign for the car (looking at the rated miles projected to 100% is equivalent, but doesn’t give a result directly in kWh…). You can easily do both of these calculations just by sitting in the car without driving it - you just need to ask that the car be charged over 70% (80-90% preferred) before you accept delivery.

From @eivissa table above it seems like you might be stuck with a 75kWh battery in Q3, which would be unfortunate, but he can comment if that is correct.

 

[Matt125]

The energy screen method provides the minimum value of the degradation threshold and the actual capacity (so will typically give you the degradation threshold for a new vehicle).

So that would rule out some possibilities before you sign for the car (looking at the rated miles projected to 100% is equivalent, but doesn’t give a result directly in kWh…). You can easily do both of these calculations just by sitting in the car without driving it - you just need to ask that the car be charged over 70% (80-90% preferred) before you accept delivery.

From @eivissa table above it seems like you might be stuck with a 75kWh battery in Q3, which would be unfortunate, but he can comment if that is correct.

Yes, that table was very informative - would love to know where the Q4 info is coming from as Tesla never give out info like that!

I'm thinking that if I just delay delivery into October then that takes me outside Q3 and they'll just give that car to someone else (Model 3 is in such high demand in the UK), and I'm more likely to get a Q4 car with bigger capacity. That's if the info on Q4 having bigger batteries is true!

 

[eivissa]

I have kept SoC always about 77% - 88%. So I'll try that refresh, but first I am going to look that 100% range tomorrow.

That is the thing!
Limiting the daily SoC to 50-60% results in a high BMS capacity (calculation/guess).
Limiting the daily SoC to 80-90% results in a low BMS capacity (calculation/guess).
What you see isn't degradation, but a pessimistic calculation of your battery management system due to high daily SoC charges.
-> Easy to revert!

From @eivissa table above it seems like you might be stuck with a 75kWh battery in Q3, which would be unfortunate, but he can comment if that is correct.

I fully agree. You are about 90% certain to get the old LG 75kWh battery. That is what we get in mainland Europe as well for Q3 or most of Q3.

Yes, that table was very informative - would love to know where the Q4 info is coming from as Tesla never give out info like that!

A new LG battery pack with NMC chemistry and around 82kWh will come. That is confirmed by Tesla's European type certification documents for Model 3/Y.
What we dont know is the time.
There are articles from China claiming that LG has shifted to a new cell chemistry (NCMA) during the July/2021 production.
Putting those two news together results in a shift from LG 75kWh to LG 82kWh during Q3 or with beginning of Q4.

When the Panasonic 82kWh battery pack was introduced there was a priority on the Model 3 Performance. I believe this will happen now as well, but with the Model Y getting it first!

 

[Matt125]

I fully agree. You are about 90% certain to get the old LG 75kWh battery. That is what we get in mainland Europe as well for Q3 or most of Q3.

A new LG battery pack with NMC chemistry and around 82kWh will come. That is confirmed by Tesla's European type certification documents for Model 3/Y.
What we dont know is the time.
There are articles from China claiming that LG has shifted to a new cell chemistry (NCMA) during the July/2021 production.
Putting those two news together results in a shift from LG 75kWh to LG 82kWh during Q3 or with beginning of Q4.

When the Panasonic 82kWh battery pack was introduced there was a priority on the Model 3 Performance. I believe this will happen now as well, but with the Model Y getting it first!

Hmm, ok. So there's still a chance I might get it end of Q3 (my delivery will probably be mid-to-end September). If China are putting new batteries in the cars they are producing now then I expect it is actually more than 10% likely I will get the new pack. I don't expect my car will have been made yet!

My plan is to ask Tesla about this when they try to set my delivery date. They will likely not know what I'm talking about but I'm going to use your chart as a guide and say I need to know what the battery is and that they can take as long as they like to get back to me!

 

[eivissa]

Hmm, ok. So there's still a chance I might get it end of Q3 (my delivery will probably be mid-to-end September). If China are putting new batteries in the cars they are producing now then I expect it is actually more than 10% likely I will get the new pack. I don't expect my car will have been made yet!

My plan is to ask Tesla about this when they try to set my delivery date. They will likely not know what I'm talking about but I'm going to use your chart as a guide and say I need to know what the battery is and that they can take as long as they like to get back to me!

You need to request the COC from them. Within their system they can pull this data and what you want is the section "0.2 variant"

• E5CD = LG 75kWh
• E5LD = LG 82kWh (or in this region)
• E3LD = Panasonic 82kWh

The first one is the one you want to skip. The Panasonic is very desirable and the new LG probably is too.

What you cant do is demanding the larger batteries, since at the time of your order the claimed range was 360 miles. That is the range of the LG 75kWh pack!

Best thing is to postpone your delivery, put the VIN assignment on hold, until there is certainty that the old LG 75kWh has been phased out.

If China are putting new batteries in the cars they are producing now then I expect it is actually more than 10% likely I will get the new pack.

Again...there is a good chance, that initially those new batteries end up in the Model Y first and Model 3 later. Although right now the only certified car for the battery is the Model 3 LR. The Model Y isnt certified (for the EU) at all to this moment!

 

[Matt125]

You need to request the COC from them. Within their system they can pull this data and what you want is the section "0.2 variant"

• E5CD = LG 75kWh
• E5LD = LG 82kWh (or in this region)
• E3LD = Panasonic 82kWh

The first one is the one you want to skip. The Panasonic is very desirable and the new LG probably is too.

What you cant do is demanding the larger batteries, since at the time of your order the claimed range was 360 miles. That is the range of the LG 75kWh pack!

Best thing is to postpone your delivery, put the VIN assignment on hold, until there is certainty that the old LG 75kWh has been phased out.

Again...there is a good chance, that initially those new batteries end up in the Model Y first and Model 3 later. Although right now the only certified car for the battery is the Model 3 LR. The Model Y isnt certified (for the EU) at all to this moment!

Thanks. I'm hoping that the 'Estimated delivery: September" drags into October given their issues with supply and demand, and the launch of the Model Y in mainland Europe being their focus.

My interest in the new battery is academic really. I'm a nerd about the batteries from being such a big fan of Bjorn Nyland, but it won't affect my driving style at all given that most of the time I charge at home.

 

[eivissa]

I'm a nerd about the batteries from being such a big fan of Bjorn Nyland, but it won't affect my driving style at all given that most of the time I charge at home.

You need to be some sort of nerd to be hanging around in a Tesla Forum and especially in this section of it...

Being a fan of Björn Nyland is fair enough, but try to stay critical with all he is saying. He is very good at compiling data, but often jumps to the wrong conclusions. If you look in the comments section of his videos, you will see that he is often pointed in the right direction, but fails to pick up on it.

One good example is the video about the Model 3 2021 Performance and its power issues at low SoC/cold BAT. It had a very big impact, especially for potential customers in the Nordic countries (I have had many get in touch with me privately with their doubts!).
He was basically immediately notified that an update was released that fixed it (to a high extend)...to this day new users sign up in Tesla forums and their first post is "I want a Performance M3, but Ive seen Björns video...blabla". That stuff really gets annoying.

Also he never picks up on things like the battery calibration of the new 82kWh cars. His test cars sometimes were in the low 79kWh and he doesnt even pick up on it. How to get this value up, that this car is not a its full potential yet, yada yada...

I could go on, but you get the idea

 

[rvcspraneeth]

I am thinking of purchasing a 2021 M3 LR AWD. I curious as to what battery it comes with the LG or the Panasonic one. I would obviously prefer the larger one since. I don't have access to home charging. Also what is the range difference between these two. Is it noticeable in real world?

 

[snikt]

I'm curious also, however I just got my M3 LR in June, the car was built June 20th (USA).

I would have the Panasonic 82kwhr?

 

[RVAC]

This is only an "issue" for vehicles made in China. If you are in the US you get the 82kWh batteries (Panasonic 2170L NCA).

 

[kickdrou]

This is only an "issue" for vehicles made in China. If you are in the US you get the 82kWh batteries (Panasonic 2170L NCA).

soon, MIC Model 3 will have bigger LG batteries too.

 

[RVAC]

I'm aware, it was discussed a few posts earlier. However nobody knows the timeline for sure.

 

[snikt]

This is only an "issue" for vehicles made in China. If you are in the US you get the 82kWh batteries (Panasonic 2170L NCA).

My lifetime mile per KWhr is 4.484 (1160 miles so far), so it sounds like I'm right on the EPA rating of 353 miles.

Does anyone familar with TeslaMate know how to monitor for battery degradation? Would it be Projected Range tab? There's an option for Projected Range (using usable_battery_level)

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

I would obviously prefer the larger one since. I don't have access to home charging. Also what is the range difference between these two. Is it noticeable in real world?

Assuming you get a newly manufactured vehicle, you'll get the 82kWh battery. The practical range difference will be about 2.5% since that is the approximate realized increase in capacity according to the EPA discharge numbers.

I would strongly consider not getting an EV if you do not have access to even 120V home or work charging. Not saying you shouldn't do it, but consider the inconvenience and your tolerance for that. If you are parked somewhere most days where you can charge easily, then it should be fine.

 

[Szatan]

Quick Update:

All made in china Model 3 that are soon arriving on the European coast have the new Drive Unit Cat 2.

Long Range as E5D LG 75kWh.
Performance as E3LD Panasonic 82kWh.

Q2 had actually eventually established that LR/P are all Panasonic 82kWh, but now we are basically back to Q1...with the only change being the (expected) better built quality from China.

I'm getting SR+ in September, does it mean it will have new Drive Unit Cat 2 and if how different it is from existing one?

 

[eivissa]

I'm getting SR+ in September, does it mean it will have new Drive Unit Cat 2 and if how different it is from existing one?

It isnt certain. For some Reason SR+ with VIN 300+ got the old drive unit again (3D1). VIN lower than 300 with delivery in August and September all have the new DU (3D6).