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Wiki MASTER THREAD: Actual FSD Beta downloads and experiences

TIppy

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Jul 8, 2016
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I would be curious as how you think Tesla will solve the first item above when you have to make a hard 90 degree turn without crossing the line on a single lane road? If FSD would approach the intersection pointed slightly to the right like all human drivers I'd see no problem but with an obstructed B-pillar camera it seems like staying perpendicular and having to creep into the crossing road is mandatory.
I don't see why staying perpendicular is mandatory. The car has a 360 degree view around it. The more you are turned toward the target lane, the more it becomes like a merge, and the rear facing cameras come into play. There will be situations where target cars won't be visible, but that's true for us too.
 
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aronth5

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I don't see why staying perpendicular is mandatory. The car has a 360 degree view around it. The more you are turned toward the target lane, the more it becomes like a merge, and the rear facing cameras come into play. There will be situations where target cars won't be visible, but that's true for us too.
The car has a 360 degree view when there are no obstructions. Many of the T-intersections where I live have left side obstructions (trees/bushes). Unless you can tell me the forward facing cameras can see more then 90 degrees then being perpendicular seems necessary along with creeping. The result is a hard 90 degree turn that even when I've had to disengage and takeover is jerky just by the nature of having to stay in the lane. I've already had to disengage 3 times when FSD tried to pull out with a car only 96 feet away going 35-40mph which makes we wonder if the front facing cameras can even see 90 degrees to each side. I want to give Tesla the benefit of the doubt here but with the camera layout just not sure how that can ever happen.
 
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EVNow

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I think all these issues will ultimately be solved, but they shouldn't spend effort optimizing every stage along the way. It's better to get a complete solution before going back and optimizing. Some of the current algorithms may not survive to reach the final solution.
We know from AI day - they are already working on a different cost optimization strategy - NN using Monte Carlo simulation. A lot of the current paths look sub-optimal - either because of wrong weights or because they aren't finding global minimum. They need to continue fine tuning the weights (probably introduce more dimensions too) to get paths that look more human (or better).

That is how they get to complete solution.
 
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TIppy

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The car has a 360 degree view when there are no obstructions. Many of the T-intersections where I live have left side obstructions (trees/bushes). Unless you can tell me the forward facing cameras can see more then 90 degrees then being perpendicular seems necessary along with creeping. The result is a hard 90 degree turn that even when I've had to disengage and takeover is jerky just by the nature of having to stay in the lane. I've already had to disengage 3 times when FSD tried to pull out with a car only 96 feet away going 35-40mph which makes we wonder if the front facing cameras can even see 90 degrees to each side. I want to give Tesla the benefit of the doubt here but with the camera layout just not sure how that can ever happen.
As you turn toward the destination the b-pillar and repeater cameras can be located close to the edge of the obstruction with much less of the nose of the car entering the cross traffic lane and see cars that are approaching from the left of the intersection.
 
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aronth5

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As you turn toward the destination the b-pillar and repeater cameras can be located close to the edge of the obstruction with much less of the nose of the car entering the cross traffic lane and see cars that are approaching from the left of the intersection.
No. I'm probably not being clear but if the car turns towards the destination which is right it reduces how much the front camera can see to the left since its no longer perpendicular. At least that is my conjecture which seems likely given how the car stays perpendicular even as it creeps into the road. No obstruction to the left no problem.

Everyone who drives with this type of T-intersection points the car to the right and then leans as far foward as possible to see if cars are coming from the left. Its difficult even for a human. But when you do that the front facing camera is no longer able to see 90 properly to the left. I'm just hoping the front facing cameras can see more than 90 degrees then my concerns should be mute.
 
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Canefan456

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Sep 26, 2020
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Totally blew through a Stop sign this morning. Had to cross a set of railroad tracks with a Stop sign on the other side where I needed to turn right. Car crossed the tracks and barely even slowed at the Stop, making a jerky wide right turn. Luckily it was 5 AM and no cars were around. Sign was perfectly visible.
 
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TIppy

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No. I'm probably not being clear but if the car turns towards the destination which is right it reduces how much the front camera can see to the left since its no longer perpendicular. At least that is my conjecture which seems likely given how the car stays perpendicular even as it creeps into the road. No obstruction to the left no problem.

Everyone who drives with this type of T-intersection points the car to the right and then leans as far foward as possible to see if cars are coming from the left. Its difficult even for a human. But when you do that the front facing camera is no longer able to see 90 properly to the left. I'm just hoping the front facing cameras can see more than 90 degrees then my concerns should be mute.
Why would you assume they only use the front facing cameras? Even the wide angle only sees 65 degrees to the left, so they must use the b-pillar. They use the b-pillar and repeater cameras to merge into adjacent lanes. The more you turn to the right the more it looks like a merge.
 
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To give everyone an idea of camera coverage, pay attention to the girls on the right side of the car in the below images.

You can see them in frame on the wide angle (top right) and the B-pillar (middle right)
7MHSWKB.jpg


Then B-Pillar (middle right) and right repeater (bottom right)
04jZRRa.jpg


and finally right repeater (bottom right) and rear view (bottom middle)
LrL51gt.jpg



and here's probably the best example, the wide angle (top right) can no longer see to the left, but the left side B-pillar (middle left) can see just fine.
3ETImDD.jpg
 

aronth5

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Why would you assume they only use the front facing cameras? Even the wide angle only sees 65 degrees to the left, so they must use the b-pillar. They use the b-pillar and repeater cameras to merge into adjacent lanes. The more you turn to the right the more it looks like a merge.
I'll repeat my point and then stop posting on this. Since the B-pillar on the left side is obstructed and has limited vision to the left the front facing camera would see even less then 65 degrees if the car isn't perpendicular. So how does FSD handle vision when it's obstructed until cars are 90-100 feet away from the intersection? They have to creep onto a narrow road before deciding when to go. Dangerous for sure.
 

TIppy

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I'll repeat my point and then stop posting on this. Since the B-pillar on the left side is obstructed and has limited vision to the left the front facing camera would see even less then 65 degrees if the car isn't perpendicular. So how does FSD handle vision when it's obstructed until cars are 90-100 feet away from the intersection? They have to creep onto a narrow road before deciding when to go. Dangerous for sure.
Look at the lower left image. This is the left repeater looking to the rear of the car. So if as you came to a turn with an obstruction you turned to the right so that you were parallel to the target lane and the left side of the car was even with the edge of the obstruction, the repeater could see down the lane you are turning into.

Any amount you can turn to the right requires less of the car to enter the intersection and gets the b-pillar and repeater closer to the edge of the obstruction. When you are parallel to the target lane, the repeater is closer than your head. The only way you could be closer would be to roll down the window and stick your head out hoping that a semi did come by and remove it for you. You would most likely use the side mirror, but FSD could fold those in to move to the left as much as possible

and here's probably the best example, the wide angle (top right) can no longer see to the left, but the left side B-pillar (middle left) can see just fine.
3ETImDD.jpg
 
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aronth5

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They do, but they don't have to. You asked how they could solve the problem, and I gave you an answer. But you just keep insisting that they only use the front cameras which isn't true.
I wasn't going to post again but I want to correct you. Of course the B-Pillar camera is used along with the front camera. I certainly never meant to imply otherwise. The problem is the obstruction on the left which renders the B-Pillar of limited value at this T-intersection. I have a difficult time even when I lean as far forward as possible which means the B-Pillar camera is mostly blind to cars coming from the left until the car has crept well into the street. That is too late. I deal with several of these intersections every day. Roads are narrow and visibility poor. The pictures above don't come close to the obstructed views I encounter every day. Does that make sense now?
 
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TIppy

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I wasn't going to post again but I want to correct you. Of course the B-Pillar camera is used along with the front camera. I certainly never meant to imply otherwise. The problem is the obstruction on the left which renders the B-Pillar of limited value at this T-intersection. I have a difficult time even when I lean as far forward as possible which means the B-Pillar camera is mostly blind to cars coming from the left until the car has crept well into the street. That is too late. I deal with several of these intersections every day. Roads are narrow and visibility poor. The pictures above don't come close to the obstructed views I encounter every day. Does that make sense now?

No. You can orient the car so that the b-pillar or repeater camera isn't obstructed. The car doesn't have to stay perpendicular to the cross street. They can get the b-pillar and repeater cameras closer to the intersection by turning to the right, before it gets to the intersection.
Even if there is a truck parked along the right side of the road, if the car pulls out and is aligned with it (facing in the same direction), and the left edge of the car is even with the left edge of the truck the repeater camera will be able to see to the left of the truck and see oncoming cars.

I know this isn't something we normally do, but FSD could do it to make best use of its cameras.
 
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aronth5

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No. You can orient the car so that the b-pillar or repeater camera isn't obstructed. The car doesn't have to stay perpendicular to the cross street. They can get the b-pillar and repeater cameras closer to the intersection by turning to the right, before it gets to the intersection.
Even if there is a truck parked along the right side of the road, if the car pulls out and is aligned with it(facing in the same direction), and the left edge of the car is even with the left edge of the truck the repeater camera will be able to see to the left of the truck and see oncoming cars.

I know this isn't something we normally do, but FSD could do it to make best use of its cameras.
Just to give you an idea of the type of obstructions we're talking about that can happen on either side of the road. And I have dozens like this in my area I drive frequently. Now if there was a camera on the A-Pillar or closer to the front we'd be ok. Fortunately I try and avoid these with FSD but it's not always possible especially if I don't know the area. The problem now is FSD sometimes wants to blindly make a turn.

Tree Obstruction.jpg
Stop Sign.jpg
 

TIppy

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Tampa, FL
Just to give you an idea of the type of obstructions we're talking about. And I have dozens like this in my area I drive frequently.
View attachment 739883View attachment 739884
I don't see how what I've suggested wouldn't work at these intersections. You still seem to be hung up on having to remain perpendicular to the cross street. By turning ahead of time, you could easily get the b-pillar camera closer to the intersection than the forward looking cameras when you remain perpendicular.

What do you do at these intersections?
 
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aronth5

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I don't see how what I've suggested wouldn't work at these intersections. You still seem to be hung up on having to remain perpendicular to the cross street. By turning ahead of time, you could easily get the b-pillar camera closer to the intersection than the forward looking cameras when you remain perpendicular.

What do you do at these intersections?
Turn left or right. FSD always approaches these intersections perpendicular especially if there is no Stop sign. My speculation is that it knows the B-Pillar camera cannot see anything until the car would literally be in the middle of the cross street so it's trying to use the front cameras. Imagine how much safer and easier this would be if there were cameras closer to the front.
 
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EVNow

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Sep 5, 2009
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Seattle, WA
Yesterday - after a long time - I had 2 phantom braking events in the road I used to have them with 10.1/10.2, but not after that. Good thing is I've the video this time and I can analyze what might have happened. I don't know whether I stopped having braking because of new releases or changed weather / light.

One thing to note is - its a winding hilly road - and I've phantom braking while going downhill on the "hill side" - not when going uphill.

So, here is the first snap. The cars seem to be coming directly at us - and the road doesn't look curving. But - no braking here.

vlcsnap-2021-12-02-13h17m04s488.png


Second shot. The cars seem to be coming directly at us - and the road doesn't look to be curving much. Again - no braking here.

vlcsnap-2021-12-02-13h17m19s504.png


Third snap. The car seems to be coming directly at us - and the road is curving, but the other way. Again - no braking here.

vlcsnap-2021-12-02-13h18m01s130.png


Fourth snap. No cars but a sign board clearly on the side. But close to the actual bend. Here is where the first phantom braking is starting, with the speed going below 40 mph. The car went down to 30 mph even as I started pushing the accelerator. Is the car slowing for the bend ? I should note that there is no need to slow down here for the bend, the road signs don't call for slower speed and the road I guess is banked for 40 mph.

vlcsnap-2021-12-02-13h21m15s134.png


Here is the fifth snap. No cars but the side railing that is directly in front is lit by a car from around the bend. Here is where the second phantom braking is starting. This happens even as I thought I had recovered from the first braking and was about to report and the car was then back up to 37 mph. Is the car slowing because of the side railing or is it because of the second bend ?

vlcsnap-2021-12-02-13h22m56s670.png
 
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TIppy

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Jul 8, 2016
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Tampa, FL
Turn left or right. FSD always approaches these intersections perpendicular especially if there is no Stop sign. My speculation is that it knows the B-Pillar camera cannot see anything until the car would literally be in the middle of the cross street so it's trying to use the front cameras. Imagine how much safer and easier this would be if there were cameras close to the front.
You keep replying about what it does now. Your question was how could they fix it?

You said you turn left or right. FSD could also approach the turns at an angle as you do. They just don't. That still means the front of the car has to extend beyond the hedges for you to be able to see around them. I suspect it's just that it's easier at this point to just creep ahead. It would be more complicated to approach the turn at an angle.

Because you are closer to the center line of the car than the b-pillar and repeater cameras, there is an angle of approach to the intersection beyond which these cameras have a better view of the cross traffic than you do.
 

novox77

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Nov 25, 2017
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NH, MA
Turn left or right. FSD always approaches these intersections perpendicular especially if there is no Stop sign. My speculation is that it knows the B-Pillar camera cannot see anything until the car would literally be in the middle of the cross street so it's trying to use the front cameras. Imagine how much safer and easier this would be if there were cameras closer to the front.

it does seem like currently the car as a higher preference for relying on the front cameras. If the car leans toward the direction you want to go, the other cameras do have a good shot at seeing past the obstruction without you having to cross the center line of the road you're turning on.

What I notice about these heavily obstructed turns is that the car is practically guessing that the way is clear. And as it starts to turn, I'm floating the brakes just in case there's a car barreling down the road. I'm usually thinking, how does the car have any confidence with this turn when it's so hesitant on unobstructed turns....
 

S4WRXTTCS

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May 3, 2015
6,059
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Snohomish, WA
They don't quite use that...They use a classical discrete search algorithm with continuous optimization function applied on top..
You are getting that mixed up with what they plan (wish) to do aslong side that which is to add a NN planner that uses Monte Carlo Tree Search (MCTS) and a NN that helps efficiently explore the tree.

It's quite frankly impossible for any Tesla owner not to get what Tesla is doing mixed up with what Tesla told us they were going to do.

I'm constantly comparing what my car does versus what I've been told is in there.

Like for example it was said the car visualized turn signals and would yield on the freeway for a car in front with its turn signals on. I've never seen this visualization even with FSD Beta 10.5.

People also talk about the voxels, but FSD Beta cars still manage to crash into garbage cans.
 

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