Wiki MASTER THREAD: Actual FSD Beta downloads and experiences

[S4WRXTTCS]

I wonder if all this night training I'm doing with FSD will actually help with day driving . I'm still not that comfortable with relatively busy streets in the day.

Most of my FSD driving has been done at night in the rain. Engaging FSD while disengaging auto-brights is basically muscle memory by now.

I can't really say testing because with testing there is a closed loop, but FSD Beta is an open loop. Who knows if anyone actually reads what you email them.

I do click the snapshot, but mostly for turns as I find that it doesn't turn that well. Even if it does accomplish the turn it almost feels like a miracle. Usually its too hesitant before, does too many corrections mid turn, and then accelerates too hard at the end.

 

[Silenus136]

Does anyone find that FSD Beta has trouble with making tight turns? FSD failed to do a right right turn at an intersection. And here it also was not able to do a tight right turn.

Here is the street view:

Here is the top down view:

FSD Beta failed to make the right turn (the blue line). FSD Beta overshot a bit, heading towards the middle "island". It did see that it failed the turn and steered left on Westfield Ln. The red line is what FSD Beta did. To its credit, it did recover and steer left. But it failed to do the right turn.

I think part of the problem is that FSD Beta will accelerate to try to reach the TACC speed instead of taking the turn at a slow speed. By accelerating, the turn arc is too big and it misses the turn.

Yes. Here in Los Angeles, more often than not FSD Beta is unable to handle tight right turns, even at lighted/stop sign intersections. If the curb sticks out even a little, for example, immediately before initiating the turn the car jerks left, over-correcting for curb at last minute, starts to make the right and presumably seeing that it will not make it (there is typically a center median on street car is trying to enter), disengages. True even with no traffic and on fairly straight-forward intersections. Super unnerving when other cars are around. FSD Beta is unusable in my neighborhood, sadly.

 

[lurker131]

Probably a coincidence but several times when FSD has missed a right hand turn there has been a short but steep hill (up or down) immediately following the turn.

Maybe not a coincidence. My car accelerates up a hill in my neighborhood and cannot complete the right turn that T’s off midway up

 

[TIppy]

Does anyone find that FSD Beta has trouble with making tight turns? FSD failed to do a right right turn at an intersection. And here it also was not able to do a tight right turn.

Here is the street view:

Here is the top down view:

FSD Beta failed to make the right turn (the blue line). FSD Beta overshot a bit, heading towards the middle "island". It did see that it failed the turn and steered left on Westfield Ln. The red line is what FSD Beta did. To its credit, it did recover and steer left. But it failed to do the right turn.

I think part of the problem is that FSD Beta will accelerate to try to reach the TACC speed instead of taking the turn at a slow speed. By accelerating, the turn arc is too big and it misses the turn.

Because of the lack of lines on Westfield, Beta wants to be just to the right of the center of the wide lane. This puts it on a collision course with the median which comes a little farther down the lane. Since it can't continue in that direction, it aborts and goes left. Others have mentioned this same issue on straight roads. I think it's a path planning issue.

I think it would have no problem if there were lane markings. But as Elon says, it should be able to navigate without them.

I have a right turn that Beta won't make on a red light. It creeps out to where the red star is and just waits with no cars visible to the left. If I try to coax it with the accelerator, it stops as soon as I release it. It waits until the light turns green. It's not a no turn on red issue, because it creeps out past the stop line before it waits.

 

[mke23e]

Several of us have reported or stated issues with FSD randomly slowing down or phantom braking multiple times during a drive. I'm not talking about a full slow down but where the car randomly slows down 2-5 mph quickly but then resumes to regular speed immediately.

I noticed that this issue is more prevalent during daylight hours. During night time drives, even on the same streets, I hardly ever get these issues.

 

[TIppy]

Several of us have reported or stated issues with FSD randomly slowing down or phantom braking multiple times during a drive. I'm not talking about a full slow down but where the car randomly slows down 2-5 mph quickly but then resumes to regular speed immediately.

I noticed that this issue is more prevalent during daylight hours. During night time drives, even on the same streets, I hardly ever get these issues.

Variations in darkness of the pavement seems to cause this, even the shadows of trees across the street.

 

[aronth5]

On the way home all on city streets, FSD handled six neighborhood 4-way stops beautifully, even when a car to my left decided to pull out after I entered the intersection. But once I got onto 4-lane divided roads, it neglected to properly accelerate every time that a light turned green when I was behind other cars, forcing me to disengage and floor the accelerator to avoid stoking road rage in the people behind me.

You shouldn't have to disengage. Just use the go pedal. I do that frequently going thru rotaries if I'm holding up traffic behind me.

 

[Gigaron]

You shouldn't have to disengage. Just use the go pedal. I do that frequently going thru rotaries if I'm holding up traffic behind me.

Tried this the first time and the car starts and stops in fits with loud clunking sounds until I disengage.

 

[TIppy]

Tried this the first time and the car starts and stops in fits with loud clunking sounds until I disengage.

Are you keeping the accelerator depressed, or are you repeatedly pressing it trying to get Beta to complete the maneuver on it's own? The clunking is usually the brakes being applied.

If you have Obstacle-Aware Acceleration enabled, and you floor the accelerator with cars ahead of you it might cause this behavior.

I haven't seen this behavior. If I keep the accelerator depressed, the car goes without hesitation.

 

[lUtriaNt]

first day on the beta and at a stop light on a 2 way street in la. this pickup truck was parked on the opposite side of the street but next to a building that had a reflective window. the sun was just right and model 3 saw the pickup truck's reflection. i thought it was kinda neat.

i like the "cartoon" style "squigglevision" visuals the fsd beta has and its cool how it knows you are on the interstate and it changes to the regular visual.

i know you guys are all used to this but im a rookie and its cool to see the path the car thinks it can go with the dots and how in a parking structure it can get an idea of the path but its not sure (the dots are gray?). hell i just like looking at the animations!

 

[Kingoglow]

OpenStreetMap shows this:

OpenStreetMap

OpenStreetMap is a map of the world, created by people like you and free to use under an open license.

www.openstreetmap.org

normally I see 2 one-way paths when there's an island at the entry. Wondering if that will help the car. Obviously long term we can't rely on map notation for FSD to work properly, but would be interesting to see how much FSD relies on map data right now.

Here's an example of how islands are notated around me:

OpenStreetMap

OpenStreetMap is a map of the world, created by people like you and free to use under an open license.

www.openstreetmap.org

Note Palmer Drive and Garden Lane.

Intersting. Here is how the island in my neighborhood is designated:

OpenStreetMap

OpenStreetMap is a map of the world, created by people like you and free to use under an open license.

www.openstreetmap.org

FSD always fails when going northbound on Monticello, turning left onto 64th street. Always drives into the island.

 

[Wvapoker]

Probably a coincidence but several times when FSD has missed a right hand turn there has been a short but steep hill (up or down) immediately following the turn.

This is my experience, as well. I live in WV and the shortest route in and out of my neighborhood has a acute turn on a hill. It fails turning up it and down it.

 

[mxnym]

Sorry for misleading people, but yes I meant plain 15mph speed limits were ignored. However, after some testing today with 10.3.1, it seems to visualized:
View attachment 728099

Maybe it's because I've only retested with OSM mapped 15mph signs (highway=secondary,tertiary,service). I'll try again later with those not in OSM.


Actually, after my retesting, it seems like FSD Beta should be able to detect it. Maybe this was something fixed since 10.2 as I was pretty sure that was one of the first things I tried when getting into beta. I did notice it was slower to visualize the 15mph, so I needed to drive slower and closer to the sign for it to show up relative to 25mph signs.

That is interesting. I have been looking for 20MPH signs and realized I pass one every day, but it is a bit obstructed. Today, I passed two others, and one of them was right around a corner, so I figured maybe it was because of the angle, but the next was completely normal. None of these three signs have appeared on my FSD visualization.

CVC 22100(b) Left Turns. The approach for a left turn shall be made as close as practicable to the left-hand edge of the extreme left-hand lane or portion of the roadway lawfully available to traffic moving in the direction of travel of the vehicle and, when turning at an intersection, the left turn shall not be made before entering the intersection. After entering the intersection, the left turn shall be made so as to leave the intersection in a lane lawfully available to traffic moving in that direction upon the roadway being entered, except that upon a highway having three marked lanes for traffic moving in one direction that terminates at an intersecting highway accommodating traffic in both directions, the driver of a vehicle in the middle lane may turn left into any lane lawfully available to traffic moving in that direction upon the roadway being entered.

So California permits a left turn into any lane of traffic when safe. Lane splitting by motorcycles is also, unlike most states, permitted. The CHP has come out with a statement, "Lane splitting can be dangerous and extreme caution should be exercised. It should not be performed by inexperienced riders. The risk of death or serious injury during a lane splitting collision increases as speed and speed differential increases. These general safety tips are provided to assist you in the practice; however, they are not guaranteed to keep you safe. Every rider has the ultimate responsibility for their own decision-making and safety."

I understand why these seem dangerous to those in states where a left turn is from the leftmost lane into the leftmost lane. Lane splitting by motorcycles (more cynically, donorcycles) at highway speed is routinely done, even "splitting" the separator between HOV and main lanes (between double yellow lines). Listen to LA traffic reports... there's at least one motorcycle down each morning and evening rush hour.

Not sure if this was supposed to be follow-up to the previous post about the no right on red signs, but if it was, it doesn't indicate that protected lefts must have a no right on red for oncoming traffic at all. If you're posting code, I'd like to see that bit out of curiosity. Regardless, I agree that it indicates that any lane can be used on a protected left, and that could make a right-on-red accident the fault of the "right-turner" even though the "left-turner" was crossing lanes, but that delves away from defensive driving discussion anyway. As you likely understand, defensive driving is about avoiding accidents, not avoiding fault (which is why the "left-turner" should use the leftmost lane or at least avoid the rightmost one for the discussed situations), and IMO, FSD should be both law-abiding and defensive.

My car heads straight for my mailbox, on the left side of the street. Google maps represents this small rural subdivision and the short dead end road I live on with repeating tree patterns and a guesstimate road. Road unmarked, easily allows passage of two vehicles, lots of leaves right now.

Better maps could be a huge improvement.

Planning to put an orange cone in front of mail box and see what it does the next time. I have to be careful selecting FSD due to neighbors exercising on the road. A visualization missed them entirely when they were laying on the road (not their typical style). I mention this to emphasize how far object recognition needs to go to avoid people who are doing strange things.

Road to town is twisty and hilly with a few blind curves. Often back roads end up with 55mph speed limits, totally inappropriate when you are heading into a blind curve. Honey badger don't care.

To be clear, are you saying your vehicle goes 55 where you think it's inappropriate? I have had several experiences where FSD isn't driving anywhere near the speed limit (in spite of the max setting indicating it can) when I feel it would be appropriate, especially on back roads with 50+mph speed limits, but even on roads with lower limits than that in some cases.

This was my understanding as well, that OSM was used for parking lots (smart summon) and google was used for road mapping and data. So many people say it's this or that but don't actually know, that's why I'm hoping that guy has done something with nodes in OSM and actually saw that it made a difference on speed limit data for roads. I would be super happy if this was the case.

It's crazy how often this comes up. I think people see things they don't understand, but don't know they don't understand, and subsequently speak authoritatively about them even though they shouldn't. The fact is that the maps displayed on the MCU are Google maps. It is also a fact that navigation sometimes suggests routes that include roads that don't exist IRL or on the map displayed on the MCU. As Google could theoretically have navigation data that differs from its display maps, this doesn't necessarily prove that navigation isn't using Google data. That having been said, I don't know whether or Google allows any third party to access their navigation data, but I have seen multiple third parties authoritatively state that Google does not.

 

[spokey]

This morning I had numerous (maybe every 1/4 mile or so) phantom brakes. There is a clear sky, bright sun, and strong shadows.

But it handled a utility truck parked on the shoulder with cones in to the lane well with a car coming the other way but far enough off that I would have moved left and proceeded. Similar good maneuvers around a bicycle and a walker on the shoulder.

 

[spokey]

You shouldn't have to disengage. Just use the go pedal. I do that frequently going thru rotaries if I'm holding up traffic behind me.

yes, I'm learning to press the pedal at times. Mostly when cars are behind and it is being timid on a turn when I can clearly see that there are no relevant cars in the way

 

[EVNow]

This morning I had numerous (maybe every 1/4 mile or so) phantom brakes. There is a clear sky, bright sun, and strong shadows.

Hard braking or small slowdowns ? Small slowdowns keep happening - but I've not had a "real" phantom braking in a while ... (except in that one downhill road).

 

[old pilot]

That is interesting. I have been looking for 20MPH signs and realized I pass one every day, but it is a bit obstructed. Today, I passed two others, and one of them was right around a corner, so I figured maybe it was because of the angle, but the next was completely normal. None of these three signs have appeared on my FSD visualization.

Not sure if this was supposed to be follow-up to the previous post about the no right on red signs, but if it was, it doesn't indicate that protected lefts must have a no right on red for oncoming traffic at all. If you're posting code, I'd like to see that bit out of curiosity. Regardless, I agree that it indicates that any lane can be used on a protected left, and that could make a right-on-red accident the fault of the "right-turner" even though the "left-turner" was crossing lanes, but that delves away from defensive driving discussion anyway. As you likely understand, defensive driving is about avoiding accidents, not avoiding fault (which is why the "left-turner" should use the leftmost lane or at least avoid the rightmost one for the discussed situations), and IMO, FSD should be both law-abiding and defensive.

To be clear, are you saying your vehicle goes 55 where you think it's inappropriate? I have had several experiences where FSD isn't driving anywhere near the speed limit (in spite of the max setting indicating it can) when I feel it would be appropriate, especially on back roads with 50+mph speed limits, but even on roads with lower limits than that in some cases.

It's crazy how often this comes up. I think people see things they don't understand, but don't know they don't understand, and subsequently speak authoritatively about them even though they shouldn't. The fact is that the maps displayed on the MCU are Google maps. It is also a fact that navigation sometimes suggests routes that include roads that don't exist IRL or on the map displayed on the MCU. As Google could theoretically have navigation data that differs from its display maps, this doesn't necessarily prove that navigation isn't using Google data. That having been said, I don't know whether or Google allows any third party to access their navigation data, but I have seen multiple third parties authoritatively state that Google does not.

I have been on Google maps and OSM and made changes to speed limits. I got a confirmation on the sight (several days later) that the changes had been approved and added to the map. Does this mean that the changes went to tesla, I do not know, but the changes were make and accepted. As I said in an earlier post I have not seen an update to the map in the car since 2020. When the map data is updated by tesla I will check to see if the new speed limit is displayed and assume ( no way of knowing for sure I also made changes on OSM) tesla uses one of the two map service. I do believe they use Google maps from an article I read and posted here previously. Does someone here have a friend at tesla who can just tell us which map service is used?

 

[Phlier]

I think there is some problem with mapping and routing. It missed one turn and routed to drive all around the neighborhood to avoid making a left turn I guess.

The day after 10.3.1 dropped, I actually had the nav system plan a route that had an endless loop in it. I thought what the heck, and drove it just to see if it would, indeed, just keep going around one block. Yup, it did.

There appears to be a random but in how it plans nav routes this go around. Sometimes it'll come up with routes that either just don't make sense at all, or in the worst case, have an endless loop in it.

 

[Phlier]

Hard braking or small slowdowns ? Small slowdowns keep happening - but I've not had a "real" phantom braking in a while ... (except in that one downhill road).

That's been my experience with 10.3.1, too. Rather than good old hard phantom braking, I'm now getting phantom slowing in areas that previously triggered seat belt locking braking.

Ah well, at least it's progress.

 

[MP3Mike]

I have been on Google maps and OSM and made changes to speed limits. I got a confirmation on the sight (several days later) that the changes had been approved and added to the map. Does this mean that the changes went to tesla, I do not know, but the changes were make and accepted. As I said in an earlier post I have not seen an update to the map in the car since 2020. When the map data is updated by tesla I will check to see if the new speed limit is displayed and assume ( no way of knowing for sure I also made changes on OSM) tesla uses one of the two map service. I do believe they use Google maps from an article I read and posted here previously. Does someone here have a friend at tesla who can just tell us which map service is used?

I don't think they use Google for map data, they have their own but I don't know where they source changes from. And last I heard they use TomTom for speed limit data.

OSM is used for parking lot smart summon. (Which is done on their servers in the cloud so an update on the car isn't necessary to see changes.)