MASTER THREAD: Comprehensive Road-Course Modification Guide — Optimizing the 3 for the track

[MasterC17]

What needs more clearance in the front? >=305? 295 yoko, or some specific offset? What do you really gain? I’d like 315/335 A7 but that does need some clearance.
I just got a pair or 11”x18”+40 Koenig rears for my 315 A7, fit much better than the 10.5 +25, Larison rock hill climb next weekend .
Anyone near nor cal to southern Oregon need a pair of 18” 10.5 grey koni hypergrams?

Anything 295 or larger is going to need modifications to the front to make it work with stock fenders, there's literally no room left either way (knuckle or fender) so the offset is basically just finding the sweet spot where the tire doesn't rub on either. The primary benefit to 305's is that there is generally more availability than 295's. I went from 295 A052's to 305 RT660's, for example.

 

[Lindenwood]

@MasterC17

Brakes…

I have read through this entire thread a couple of times now.

I have started to get into AutoX with my 2022 M3P (coming up on 2 months old), and would like to do a performance driving school this fall and perhaps a few HPDEs per year going forward.

Early on you described that the standard pads + fluid are good enough for most, but have since flatly stated that you were outrunning your brakes until you went BBK.

Now, I don’t think I need anything significant right now, but especially considering the only remaining upgrade after pads and fluids are the $2000 Page Mill rotors, I am hesitant to start investing in the stock brake system if I could just do it once and be done.

Now that it’s been a few years since you started blazing this trail, thoughts?

(I have MPP front and rear UCAs, rear toe arms, and Comfort Adjustables installed. I also have MPP Brake lines, RBF600, and a master cylinder brace in the mail as well. I am also considering the MPP rear motor cooler because it already displays as orange after even pretty normal driving in these 100-degree summer temps).

Thanks!

 

[TacoSteve]

@MasterC17

Brakes…

I have read through this entire thread a couple of times now.

I have started to get into AutoX with my 2022 M3P (coming up on 2 months old), and would like to do a performance driving school this fall and perhaps a few HPDEs per year going forward.

Early on you described that the standard pads + fluid are good enough for most, but have since flatly stated that you were outrunning your brakes until you went BBK.

Now, I don’t think I need anything significant right now, but especially considering the only remaining upgrade after pads and fluids are the $2000 Page Mill rotors, I am hesitant to start investing in the stock brake system if I could just do it once and be done.

Now that it’s been a few years since you started blazing this trail, thoughts?

(I have MPP front and rear UCAs, rear toe arms, and Comfort Adjustables installed. I also have MPP Brake lines, RBF600, and a master cylinder brace in the mail as well. I am also considering the MPP rear motor cooler because it already displays as orange after even pretty normal driving in these 100-degree summer temps).

Thanks!

You'll know when you need to upgrade your brake system when your rotor temp exceeds the temperature range of your pads, which is when you feel "fading". Even the MPP rotors are not enough for certain tracks/conditions since they don't increase the thermal mass much. If you are like me and only run 1-2 laps then the MPP rotors are good for that, but if you want to run entire sessions a true BBK is the only answer. This is assuming you are getting the car close to its limits. Also for Autox you'll likely be fine on OEM discs for a long time since the runs are so short. One thing you didn't mention is what tire you are running, more grip=more heat assuming you are utilizing all the grip available.

Hope this helps, I know I am not as knowledgeable as @MasterC17, but I've put the car through 20+ track days now and have been running the MPP rotors for 15ish of them.

 

[MasterC17]

@MasterC17

Brakes…

I have read through this entire thread a couple of times now.

I have started to get into AutoX with my 2022 M3P (coming up on 2 months old), and would like to do a performance driving school this fall and perhaps a few HPDEs per year going forward.

Early on you described that the standard pads + fluid are good enough for most, but have since flatly stated that you were outrunning your brakes until you went BBK.

Now, I don’t think I need anything significant right now, but especially considering the only remaining upgrade after pads and fluids are the $2000 Page Mill rotors, I am hesitant to start investing in the stock brake system if I could just do it once and be done.

Now that it’s been a few years since you started blazing this trail, thoughts?

(I have MPP front and rear UCAs, rear toe arms, and Comfort Adjustables installed. I also have MPP Brake lines, RBF600, and a master cylinder brace in the mail as well. I am also considering the MPP rear motor cooler because it already displays as orange after even pretty normal driving in these 100-degree summer temps).

Thanks!

Brakes are kind of like tires. They are all a compromise in one way or another, and which one to choose is going to be based on your own goals and use case.

The problem with the stock Performance brakes (beyond the obvious fluid) is really nothing more than the limits of the rotor thickness. 25mm front rotors on a 4,000lb car just cannot dissipate enough heat on a road course when paired with sticky tires over a sustained period of time.

They are, however, acceptable for Autocross usage. One of our forum members has extensively beaten the stock pads and rotors in an AutoX setting with good results.

That all being said, I like your idea of doing it once and being done with, it's a lesson it took me years to learn. Ultimately, it costs less money and less time.

To me, one of the biggest advantages to upgraded pads is going to be life expectancy. The stock pads will be basically non-existent after a few HPDE's. And considering the replacement cost of stock pads ($330/axle last check), aftermarket pads are actually a cheaper route in the long run. MPP rear rotors on the rear axle work great, and their rear BBK for a few hundred more is actually a pretty sweet upgrade.

On the front axle, the MPP rotors do offer a measurable increase in thermal capacity, and are probably going to be more than enough for you for your first dozen or two HPDE's. It takes time to build speed and confidence. This does to some degree depend on what tracks you are attending, however; that would be good to know before making a final decision, long straights make for a lot of heat. BBK's are awesome, and the ultimate upgrade path, but at ~$4,000-$5,000 they are obviously not the cheapest option.

I'm going to be testing a set of G-LOC R10's here soon, and I'll report back on how well they work. RB XT970's worked fairly well for me all around, Carbotechs are good but very loud; if you can get them I loved Raybestos ST43's.

 

[mcbarnet007]

I thought G-LOC and Carbotech uses the same compound? R10 = XP10 and etc. Currently I am running XP8 in the rear of my car for both daily and track and while their bite on high speed track is lacking, they don't overheat easily and only has low growl noise when it's cold on the street. As for the front I am running XP20 with MPP.R BBK and so far it's doing decent as well. I know the brake bias isn't the best but I am just too lazy to swap the rear pads. I think for the rear I'll eventually try Pagid RSL 29 sold by MPP.

 

[NoDrama]

Got my 2022 M3P a couple of weeks ago (yay!), and planning for track and autocross. To start off, I plan to do the following:

1. Brake fluid, and zip tie speed sensors, of course
2. MPP FUCA
3. Dedicated track/autocross wheels and tires
4. Schroth Quick Fit Pro harness (so I can use my HANS on track)

Once I do the above and then get some seat time, I will likely do MPP coilovers.

Questions (I'll admit that I did not go back and re-read this entire thread):

- With stock suspension should I also install the MPP rear camber arms? (I assume I'll need then when lowered on MPP coilovers.)

- 18" or 19" wheels? I remember reading on one of these threads that based on tire selection and sizes that are available one diameter is better for track, and one for autocross. I'll be using one set for both. My preference would be 18" for weight savings. I think 19" looks better, but I am going for function over looks. I'd be looking to fit the widest tires that I can comfortably fit without modifying bodywork or grinding suspension parts.

Thanks in advance.

 

[MasterC17]

I thought G-LOC and Carbotech uses the same compound? R10 = XP10 and etc. Currently I am running XP8 in the rear of my car for both daily and track and while their bite on high speed track is lacking, they don't overheat easily and only has low growl noise when it's cold on the street. As for the front I am running XP20 with MPP.R BBK and so far it's doing decent as well. I know the brake bias isn't the best but I am just too lazy to swap the rear pads. I think for the rear I'll eventually try Pagid RSL 29 sold by MPP.

My understanding is that they are similar, but not the same. I am curious to find out. I've used Carbotech XP10's in the past, so it should be a good baseline.

Got my 2022 M3P a couple of weeks ago (yay!), and planning for track and autocross. To start off, I plan to do the following:

1. Brake fluid, and zip tie speed sensors, of course
2. MPP FUCA
3. Dedicated track/autocross wheels and tires
4. Schroth Quick Fit Pro harness (so I can use my HANS on track)

Once I do the above and then get some seat time, I will likely do MPP coilovers.

Questions (I'll admit that I did not go back and re-read this entire thread):

- With stock suspension should I also install the MPP rear camber arms? (I assume I'll need then when lowered on MPP coilovers.)

- 18" or 19" wheels? I remember reading on one of these threads that based on tire selection and sizes that are available one diameter is better for track, and one for autocross. I'll be using one set for both. My preference would be 18" for weight savings. I think 19" looks better, but I am going for function over looks. I'd be looking to fit the widest tires that I can comfortably fit without modifying bodywork or grinding suspension parts.

Thanks in advance.

Camber arms in the rear will be needed to save your tires on otherwise stock suspension. They are cheap enough that they will pay themselves back on the first set of tires.

19" wheels offer the most knuckle clearance, you lose a tad bit with 18's. There's also generally better tire availability for our cars in 19".

 

[NoDrama]

My understanding is that they are similar, but not the same. I am curious to find out. I've used Carbotech XP10's in the past, so it should be a good baseline.



Camber arms in the rear will be needed to save your tires on otherwise stock suspension. They are cheap enough that they will pay themselves back on the first set of tires.

19" wheels offer the most knuckle clearance, you lose a tad bit with 18's. There's also generally better tire availability for our cars in 19".

Can you elaborate on 19" offering the most knuckle clearance? Does that mean that I could fit a wider 19" tire than 18", or that I have a wider range of wheel offsets available for 19" than 18", or something else?

 

[Zextraterrestrial]

Inner wheel clearance due to larger diameter is better. Many 18s won’t fit P cars

 

[MasterC17]

Can you elaborate on 19" offering the most knuckle clearance? Does that mean that I could fit a wider 19" tire than 18", or that I have a wider range of wheel offsets available for 19" than 18", or something else?

As the knuckle extends upwards it extends outwards as well. Therefore, a wheel with a larger diameter lip will have more clearance all else being the same.

 

[NoDrama]

As the knuckle extends upwards it extends outwards as well. Therefore, a wheel with a larger diameter lip will have more clearance all else being the same.

So generally what's the widest we can go (assuming stock suspension and camber, no body mods, and optimized offset) with 18" wheels, and with 19" wheels?

 

[Zextraterrestrial]

18” 10.5” +25 front w/295 A7 on a P3- fits great. Rear 11” +40 315 A7 perfect to the fender but maybe more room inside? I thought I’ve heard 12” fit. I only run 18s

 

[NoDrama]

18” 10.5” +25 front w/295 A7 on a P3- fits great. Rear 11” +40 315 A7 perfect to the fender but maybe more room inside? I thought I’ve heard 12” fit. I only run 18s

I'm surprised that 295 A7's would fit without any other mods, as I thought they run wide.

Would that same 18” 10.5” +25 front w/295 fit in the rear, as I want to run square?

 

[MasterC17]

So generally what's the widest we can go (assuming stock suspension and camber, no body mods, and optimized offset) with 18" wheels, and with 19" wheels?

This is a tough question, since there's really no point in running wide tires with an otherwise stock car. The difference between 18 and 19 as far as clearance isn't a whole lot, maybe 3mm or so. FWIW 305 RT660's on 19x10.5 just BARELY clears, but that's with supporting mods.

On completely stock setup, you're honestly looking at like 265's-275's at most I think.

 

[dsgerbc]

So generally what's the widest we can go (assuming stock suspension and camber, no body mods, and optimized offset) with 18" wheels, and with 19" wheels?

Not sure why this is relevant to you, since you plan on FUCAs, but the OEM suspension has a ton of bump travel up front. See pics in this post. Those are with 275-wide tires and I think the tire on that pic will run into the inner fender if turned at full compression. I do know of people running 265-wide tires in autox stock class though.

 

[Zextraterrestrial]

I'm surprised that 295 A7's would fit without any other mods, as I thought they run wide.

Would that same 18” 10.5” +25 front w/295 fit in the rear, as I want to run square?

Yes, I also have another 2 wheels from running a square set, those fit really well too! I have plain MPP rotors on a 3p- if that makes a difference on offset, actually 275 nexen on the same set fit a little wider and pulled my front fenders a bit when I had my front sway bar disconnected at laguna seca. The 18" 295 A7are shorter but fit fine for the purpose & don't rub, not sure how 19" would be tiny bit larger diameter but more ideal diameter. I prefer 18" for weight & price

 

[Mash]

275 fits fine with the right ET, 295 fit with more camber and spacers in front. Anything above 295 is a tight fit that require mods and careful adjustments.

 

[Nabush]

Hi guys,

Since my local AutoX courses are way too small for my 620HP C7 GrandSport (running SSM) I gave a try to my 2021 Model 3 LR. Car does great.
Car has the boost, Eibach Prokit progressive lowering springs (-20mm) and I run Apex Wheels EC7 18*9.5 with 265/35 18 Falken RT660 for AutoX.

Just purchased a Bonus Module from Ingenext to enable drift mode (disable TC/ESP) but not tried yet. Issue is that drift mode disables the boost it looks like... May not be a big deal because boost is really showing from 0-30... Will see

Anyway, with my suspension setup very close to OEM, I have only around -1.2 camber all around. The first AutoX with the Falken showed that even at 40F/38R the outsides are suffering.

I'm considering 2 options to improve car performance (on top of the drift mode that disables intrusive TC/ESP) :

- Corkscrew Upper A arms from MPP
- MPP Sport coilovers

Which one will give me the most bang for buck as far as lap times ? Adjustable A Arms or Coilovers ? I could do both, but I still have my vette to run on Roadcourse and it's expensive ^^

The A arms are a good option to me in the fact they will reduce tire wear and thus improve their longevity... But maybe less roll with Coilovers will help as well (not convinced for tire wear, handling for sure)

Any advices ?

Thanks

 

[MasterC17]

Hi guys,

Since my local AutoX courses are way too small for my 620HP C7 GrandSport (running SSM) I gave a try to my 2021 Model 3 LR. Car does great.
Car has the boost, Eibach Prokit progressive lowering springs (-20mm) and I run Apex Wheels EC7 18*9.5 with 265/35 18 Falken RT660 for AutoX.

Just purchased a Bonus Module from Ingenext to enable drift mode (disable TC/ESP) but not tried yet. Issue is that drift mode disables the boost it looks like... May not be a big deal because boost is really showing from 0-30... Will see

Anyway, with my suspension setup very close to OEM, I have only around -1.2 camber all around. The first AutoX with the Falken showed that even at 40F/38R the outsides are suffering.

I'm considering 2 options to improve car performance (on top of the drift mode that disables intrusive TC/ESP) :

- Corkscrew Upper A arms from MPP
- MPP Sport coilovers

Which one will give me the most bang for buck as far as lap times ? Adjustable A Arms or Coilovers ? I could do both, but I still have my vette to run on Roadcourse and it's expensive ^^

The A arms are a good option to me in the fact they will reduce tire wear and thus improve their longevity... But maybe less roll with Coilovers will help as well (not convinced for tire wear, handling for sure)

Any advices ?

Thanks

If your primary concern is tire wear I think the front upper control arms will be the better solution.

 

[Nabush]

If your primary concern is tire wear I think the front upper control arms will be the better solution.

It's one of my concerns. Being fast is also a concern ^^. I usually do pretty well with the vette and the Tesla is 10x easier to drive, so I've been pretty competitive in my club, even with some national event level dudes...

Do those A Arms improve front grip level ? The car is lacking front grip in sweepers (especially vs the vette) and braking is not good (but 4000Lbs so no surprise) ?

MPP says they are good for better times in seconds, but it seems excessive to me... ??