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MASTER THREAD: Comprehensive Road-Course Modification Guide — Optimizing the 3 for the track

gigg

Member
Sep 24, 2021
12
13
NC
This works well for all fours, solid wood base if anything fails. Removed the side handle and pad.
 

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"This is the way"

I would actually advise to use a 4x4 just for added strength, but you'll have to trim it a bit to make it fit
Honestly I have been wrenching a while and have literally never seen or heard of a modern hydraulic Jack rapidly failing. Yes, they all eventually get to where they won’t hold pressure, but all the “the jack broke and the car killed him” stories I have ever heard were from scissor jacks or 1960s bumper jacks. So, I usually let down the arm against the wood block, pump it once to get some pressure back, and trust that the .01% chance the jack loses integrity and the .01% chance the wood can’t hold to stack in my favor.
 
"This is the way"

Honestly I have been wrenching a while and have literally never seen or heard of a modern hydraulic Jack rapidly failing. Yes, they all eventually get to where they won’t hold pressure, but all the “the jack broke and the car killed him” stories I have ever heard were from scissor jacks or 1960s bumper jacks. So, I usually let down the arm against the wood block, pump it once to get some pressure back, and trust that the .01% chance the jack loses integrity and the .01% chance the wood can’t hold to stack in my favor.
I completely agree, just don't want to be responsible for someones death by recommending a 2x4 when/if that .01% happens. No one should be entrusting their life to a couple of dudes on the internet anyway lol. #useatyourownrisk #payaprofessionalifyouhavetoask
 
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I also have that jack from before I had a Tesla , but it's not low-profile enough to fit under my car (~100mm jacking point to ground) with a hockey puck Tesla adapter. I guess one could get some thin jack adapters, but I have another jack that's low enough.

I'd be concerned that that 2x4 would get split if the jack blows a seal somehow, but that's a very low probability event. It's much more likely to seep slowly.
 
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I also have that jack from before I had a Tesla , but it's not low-profile enough to fit under my car (~100mm jacking point to ground) with a hockey puck Tesla adapter. I guess one could get some thin jack adapters, but I have another jack that's low enough.

I'd be concerned that that 2x4 would get split if the jack blows a seal somehow, but that's a very low probability event. It's much more likely to seep slowly.
Yeah, this pic was immediately after I cut the 2x4s. Since then I have run bolts through the 2x4s to prevent them from splitting!

I stopped using the hockey-pick lift discs once I fully understood that the lift points are the lowest point in the vehicle, and got used to identifying exactly where they are. The lift pucks are good for someone who isn’t familiar, but they aren’t necessary when using any jack with a flat lift pad.
 
The lift pucks are good for someone who isn’t familiar, but they aren’t necessary when using any jack with a flat lift pad.
Idk, I don't feel comfortable lifting one side of the car pretty high up with just the rubber pad friction stopping the jack from sliding out. I like to have a physical wedge of some sorts in there when there both lifting and tilting.
 
Idk, I don't feel comfortable lifting one side of the car pretty high up with just the rubber pad friction stopping the jack from sliding out. I like to have a physical wedge of some sorts in there when there both lifting and tilting.
That’s fair! I have always lifted the car in 3 steps, adding an intermediate initial lift on one side to minimize the lateral angle, so I understand how you feel!
 
Idk, I don't feel comfortable lifting one side of the car pretty high up with just the rubber pad friction stopping the jack from sliding out. I like to have a physical wedge of some sorts in there when there both lifting and tilting.
As long as the jack is free to roll as the car shifts it should be okay. At the track we normally lift from the rear jackpoint because you can get both front and rear tires off the ground easier from there. So no need to jack up 4 times, just twice. And yeah no lifting pucks are used, my car barely fits the jack without jack pucks.
 
After measuring the factory rear performance bar, I realized the UP bar is not nearly as significant a difference as I expected. What is advertised as a near-300% increase in bar spring rate actually refers only to the LR bar, whereas the factory Performance rear bar is only roughly ~10% softer (about 10 ft/lb spring rate) than the UP bar at the softest setting. Thus, I went ahead and installed the UP bar at the softest setting, and the difference has been too subtle to notice during normal street driving (which I wanted). I will continue to experiment.

Oh, I got the race tires mounted
Team,

Me and my M3P are signed up for a 2-day performance driving course on 9-10 Oct! There Is a Supercharger about 20 minutes away from the track and they confirmed available 240v outlets.

Current mods:
-MPP Comfort Adjustables
-MPP FUCAs
-MPP Rear Camber and Toe arms
-MPP Master Cylinder Brace
-MPP Compression Rod Bushings

Last Successful AutoX Alignment:
-F: ~3.1 Camber, 0mm Toe
-R: ~2.1 Camber, 1.5mm toe out
-Placed 6/15 PAX, 4/15 RAW, on all-seasons.

Stuff sitting in my garage:
-MPP SS Brake Lines / RBF600 fluid
-6-Piston Brembo front BBK (370mm)
-UP Rear Anti-Sway bar
—(To bring handling balance a hair forward and help offset the softer Comfort coils. It might be a bit heavier than I need so I expect I’ll want to experiment with zero rear toe or even adding some rear toe-in, plus a more neutral or even forward Track Mode bias).

Stuff in the mail:
-19x9.5+22 wheels
-275/35R19 Federal 595RS-Pros

Planned starting alignment:
-F: ~3.1 Camber, 0mm Toe
-R: ~2.5 Camber, 0mm Toe
-Rear UP Anti-sway bar on its softest setting.

Any other setup tips? I have been eyeballing the MPP rear motor cooler given how many times I have seen my rear motor displayed in orange during just AutoX or even driving around on a hot day. Do I not need to worry about that for now?

Thanks!

@MountainPass @MasterC17 @tm1v2 @Sam1@gearchruncher @dsgerbc @Motion122 @SK360 @dfwatt @TacoSteve
Just for reference to any future readers:

After measuring the factory rear performance bar, I realized the UP bar is not nearly as significant a difference as I thought. What is advertised as a near-300% increase in bar spring rate actually refers only to the LR bar, whereas the factory Performance rear bar is only roughly ~10% softer (about 10 ft/lb spring rate) than the UP bar at the softest setting. Thus, I went ahead and installed the UP bar at the softest setting, and the difference has been too subtle to notice during normal street driving (which Is what wanted). I will continue to experiment with bar and damper settings.

I also got the race tires mounted:
Tires: 275/35R19 Federal 595RS-Pros (which are much quieter than the reports I heard about the RS-RRs)

Wheels: Cheapo 19x9.5+22 (24lb) on sale for $205 each at bbwheelsonline.com. (Plug: they actually had me call them to discuss the aggressive offset, and were enthusiastic when I sent them pics and specs of my current setup with spaced-out Uberturbines).

11CA01A9-BACA-4C7F-B8F0-9D8679F10AFF.jpeg
35BF07E1-EDBD-4023-A57C-3C3C4A4491D1.jpeg


And I saw my 4-year-old went out and put his two “Baby Teswas” next to my car this morning, so I couldn’t pass up a pic of that :p .

44CF3DE5-9F6A-4D5B-B004-A3FBE7164169.jpeg
 
After measuring the factory rear performance bar, I realized the UP bar is not nearly as significant a difference as I expected. What is advertised as a near-300% increase in bar spring rate actually refers only to the LR bar, whereas the factory Performance rear bar is only roughly ~10% softer (about 10 ft/lb spring rate) than the UP bar at the softest setting. Thus, I went ahead and installed the UP bar at the softest setting, and the difference has been too subtle to notice during normal street driving (which I wanted). I will continue to experiment.

Car looks great and this is great info. Where did you happen to find the OEM Performance rear sway bar rate?

When purchasing sway bars, I made a comparison chart of the aftermarket options. If the OEM P bar is about 103 lbs/in, this makes me realize the MPP rear bar is actually pretty similar to UPP. I'm sure they would tell us the actual spring rate because they're awesome.

Tube diameter (mm)Spring rate (lbs/in)Increase in stiffness from LR AWD non-P
OEM front296500
OEM rear16400
OEM P rear19.6103256%
UPP front31.8740-107514%-65%
UPP rear22.2114-150285-375%
UPP comp25>150>375%
MPP front32741-83214-28%
MPP rear22112-130 or (44-51)280%-325% (9-27% advertised)
 
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Car looks great and this is great info. Where did you happen to find the OEM Performance rear sway bar rate?

When purchasing sway bars, I made a comparison chart of the aftermarket options. If the OEM P bar is about 103 lbs/in, this makes me realize the MPP rear bar is actually pretty similar to UPP. I'm sure they would tell us the actual spring rate because they're awesome.

Tube diameter (mm)Spring rate (lbs/in)Increase in stiffness from LR AWD non-P
OEM front296500
OEM rear16400
OEM P rear19.6103256%
UPP front31.8740-107514%-65%
UPP rear22.2114-150285-375%
UPP comp25>150>375%
MPP front32741-83214-28%
MPP rear22112-130 or (44-51)280%-325% (9-27% advertised)
The rear Performance bar is 19.6mm, and I measured the rest of the dimensions and used this site to calculate. I estimated wall thickness, but between .1” walls and fully solid the rate only change from about 90lb/ft to about 115lb/ft, so I just estimated it in the middle at around 100 lb/ft effective rate. Your chart seems in line with this.

And indeed, the UP seems to have bigger differences between each of the 3 settings, but they are quite close at the bottom end.

 
Last edited:
After measuring the factory rear performance bar, I realized the UP bar is not nearly as significant a difference as I expected. What is advertised as a near-300% increase in bar spring rate actually refers only to the LR bar, whereas the factory Performance rear bar is only roughly ~10% softer (about 10 ft/lb spring rate) than the UP bar at the softest setting. Thus, I went ahead and installed the UP bar at the softest setting, and the difference has been too subtle to notice during normal street driving (which I wanted). I will continue to experiment.

Oh, I got the race tires mounted

Just for reference to any future readers:

After measuring the factory rear performance bar, I realized the UP bar is not nearly as significant a difference as I thought. What is advertised as a near-300% increase in bar spring rate actually refers only to the LR bar, whereas the factory Performance rear bar is only roughly ~10% softer (about 10 ft/lb spring rate) than the UP bar at the softest setting. Thus, I went ahead and installed the UP bar at the softest setting, and the difference has been too subtle to notice during normal street driving (which Is what wanted). I will continue to experiment with bar and damper settings.

I also got the race tires mounted:
Tires: 275/35R19 Federal 595RS-Pros (which are much quieter than the reports I heard about the RS-RRs)

Wheels: Cheapo 19x9.5+22 (24lb) on sale for $205 each at bbwheelsonline.com. (Plug: they actually had me call them to discuss the aggressive offset, and were enthusiastic when I sent them pics and specs of my current setup with spaced-out Uberturbines).

View attachment 835190 View attachment 835191

And I saw my 4-year-old went out and put his two “Baby Teswas” next to my car this morning, so I couldn’t pass up a pic of that :p .

View attachment 835192
Painted the wheels black this week before a car show today! I drove 170 miles round trip for the event. Honestly these tires really aren’t that loud—I am not sure my wife will notice the whirr at typical 75-80mph highway speeds. That said, they really start singing above 100mph hahaha.

That said, the Autocross-centric alignment (~1.5mm rear toe out and ~0.5mm front toe out) is definitely not as stable at high speeds (approaching 120) as before. I am next going to experiment with 0 toe f/r and then using the rear anti-sway bar at stiffer settings to keep the rear end wanting to rotate during autocross. Of course, adding 1mm of toe for AutoX days, while returning to 0 degrees for daily / road coarse duties, is certainly not difficult.

D9242F1E-79E3-462B-A684-CA9732298ECB.jpeg
 

tm1v2

Active Member
Oct 18, 2021
2,050
1,690
USA
I've noticed the steering "sport mode" feels lighter with the last few software updates. Does this affect handling on the track? Or it doesn't matter for you guys?
I leave it in Comfort. Even then it's a lot of work after a full day on track. There's genuinely no reason, in my opinion, to increase the effort required to turn the wheel beyond maybe personal preference.
 
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I leave it in Comfort. Even then it's a lot of work after a full day on track. There's genuinely no reason, in my opinion, to increase the effort required to turn the wheel beyond maybe personal preference.
Another reason is "because racecar." In the sim-racing world, people spend crazy money for powerful wheels that'd easily sprain their owners' wrists.
Personally, I don't think the amount of effort it takes to steer has much impact on the amount of information the steering feedback offers. Comfort for me as well.
 
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Mash

Active Member
Supporting Member
Nov 10, 2019
1,237
1,080
Prague
Another reason is "because racecar." In the sim-racing world, people spend crazy money for powerful wheels that'd easily sprain their owners' wrists.
Personally, I don't think the amount of effort it takes to steer has much impact on the amount of information the steering feedback offers. Comfort for me as well.
As an owner of 20nm sim wheel, I have to say, that the power there is not for information, but for engagement. Since it's the only force pushing on you, that's what you're physically fighting against. And "crazy" money (less than FUCA cost) there just for detailed direct drive servo motor, not for the force itself.

With Tesla I prefer to feel the wheel slip better, so I keep Normal on track. City driving - comfort. And sport on autobahn, because I don't want to accidentally turn from the bump, driving at speed limiter for a long time.
 
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