MASTER THREAD: Comprehensive Road-Course Modification Guide — Optimizing the 3 for the track

[Moto Miwa]

Another reason to be very skeptical of this guy's claims is that in fact the energy lost in Tesla's one gear "transmission" is markedly less than the energy loss associated with the 90° torque translation in traditional differentials and drive shafts. This is part of the reason (but not the whole reason) why Teslas accelerate faster than their power to weight ratio would suggest they could (and why their WHP ratings show less % drop than ICE vehicles, relative to engine/motor BHP) – they're losing only a few percent (vs. 14-20% in some 4 wheel drive systems) because you're never changing the plane of rotation from the motor to the wheels. That 90° Torque translation in a traditional transmission with many gears plus a differential costs way more energy, which is of course lost in terms of extra heat, whereas in the gear reduction in a Model 3 it's probably a few percent. That probably just means there's just a whole lot less heat to worry about in the transmission. This claim that our cars need this finned oil filter, as you said especially for street, is nonsense. I'm even skeptical that it's necessary on the track. I doubt even tracking gets the oil temp high enough to start breaking it down but without Data who knows. Obviously different story around the motor and battery.

Even with the power to weight equalized at the wheel, after the compensated figure (WHP), the Tesla and many other similarly equipped BEV have a simple and huge advantage over ICE cars in that the most of these BEV have nearly 100% of the torque available from zero rpm. This is VERY different from ICE engines where the peak torque is limited at very specific range of engine rpm.
So in the first stage, Tesla can outpace the ICE car at launch where the BEV can pretty much unload am entire peak torque minus traction control compensation to the tire's maximum adhesion. This is where a car like the Plaid can leave a gas car by almost 1 second, hence it's 0-60 being just over 2 seconds. While most all ICE cars need nearly 3 seconds, regardless of maximum power. There is that nearly 1 second where the clutch has to be slipped, and tires must be calmed, set, and whole driveline stabilized from the process of trying to mate a spinning engine at like 4500rpm to a set of stopped wheels...This latter is a very explosive, inefficient, and messy process compared to BEV when it comes to contact patch management at launch.
Underway, the BEV of course has no pauses in acceleration or duration where the engine is outside of peak torque range like in the case of ICE that have to repeat the engage/disengage process slightly for every shift that needs to take place. Modern DCT transmissions have reduced this inefficacy greatly these days, but it isn't anything close to the efficacy of having no gear change at all.
So yes, lots of variables.
But my point was because there are no gear changes, and one-speed reduction gearbox is constantly having a load instead of being a part-time load like in a ICE engine and transmission, the wear and heat at the specific gear teeth are pretty high. Now exactly how effective the Enduro cooler-filter I have yet to really generate numbers, but since it is part of the same fluid temp, exchanged at the system heat exchanger loop that keeps batteries and motors in check...anything to dissipate any heat is a good thing unless we are in extreme cold. I think.

 

[Mash]

So we're talking about oil that is used to cool motor coils. It has nothing to do with the gearbox heat, but has everything to do with motors heat. And motors at peak power are the primary source of heat in model 3. And oil is in fact hottest fluid available, so it's the best option to evacuate heat.

Power of heat removal process is proportional to radiator surface area and temperature delta between air and radiator + radiator and oil.

Fin tube radiator has easily 50x surface area per volume vs brick + air flow that allows to have delta 10-100x vs stall air + 10x oil to radiator area inside tubes. Those things multiply each other.

 

[Lindenwood]

I am definitely starting to appreciate how much pitch and roll the Comfort springs allow. I expect to do ~8-12 Autocross events and probably 4-6 track days in 2023.

My options for improving my Comforts, in order of overall improvement value on the track:

1) Swap to Sport coils ($500ish)
2) Swap to MPP.R coils in my Comfort dampers, including the requisite rear spring arms (Around $1200ish)
3) Swap to a full Sport kit to get the more aggressive dampers (probably around $1750 after selling my Comforts)
4) Swap to a full Sport kit plus MPP.R coils / spring arms (around $3000)

Separately, for a smaller road coarse (max speeds of around 105) that still turns my rotors blue but has yet to result in any brake fade, would it be worth upgrading to the MPP rear Big Brakes? I will probably move to to Xt970 rear pads either way.

I will also be adding a rear Oil Cooler and Compression Rod Bearings.

Thanks!

@Mash @MasterC17 @MountainPass @tm1v2 etc

 

[MasterC17]

@Mash @MasterC17 @MountainPass @tm1v2 etc

Hmm, this is a bit of a tough one. I think ultimately your best bet is to swap to the Sports Coilovers and sell the Comfort's. Used Coilovers seem to have pretty strong residual value, and mismatching dampers and springs isn't ever going to be the best solution. The Super Sport springs are a little much for a daily driver. So, I think this is the best direction.

The rear BBK is an awesome value since you don't need to fully replace the calipers. Pads will last longer, so it's sort of a long-term investment that will eventually repay itself.

 

[Lindenwood]

Hmm, this is a bit of a tough one. I think ultimately your best bet is to swap to the Sports Coilovers and sell the Comfort's. Used Coilovers seem to have pretty strong residual value, and mismatching dampers and springs isn't ever going to be the best solution. The Super Sport springs are a little much for a daily driver. So, I think this is the best direction.

The rear BBK is an awesome value since you don't need to fully replace the calipers. Pads will last longer, so it's sort of a long-term investment that will eventually repay itself.

Thank you!

Is it worth the expense swapping to just the Sport coils?

 

[tm1v2]

Thank you!

Is it worth the expense swapping to just the Sport coils?

"Worth it" will always be a personal answer I think. To me the question is, why not swap to the full Sport kit? Are you trying to save a bit of money, or are you trying to achieve an in-between setup?

If just wanting to save money, IMO save up and do it right. Plus as others mentioned, your Comfort kit would have useful resale value if sold whole, but the springs alone there might not be any buyers for.

If you're wanting an in-between setup...I think the Sport kit *is* an in-between setup. It's not going to be race car / track rat stiff, MPP has the separate MPP.R line for that. I really think you and the family will be fine with the Sport kit on the street!

Probably the firmer damper settings would get annoyingly stiff for casual driving on bad roads, but I'm confident the softer end of the range would pass muster with the family.

 

[Lindenwood]

"Worth it" will always be a personal answer I think. To me the question is, why not swap to the full Sport kit? Are you trying to save a bit of money, or are you trying to achieve an in-between setup?

If just wanting to save money, IMO save up and do it right. Plus as others mentioned, your Comfort kit would have useful resale value if sold whole, but the springs alone there might not be any buyers for.

If you're wanting an in-between setup...I think the Sport kit *is* an in-between setup. It's not going to be race car / track rat stiff, MPP has the separate MPP.R line for that. I really think you and the family will be fine with the Sport kit on the street!

Probably the firmer damper settings would get annoyingly stiff for casual driving on bad roads, but I'm confident the softer end of the range would pass muster with the family.

Thanks! Yeah I meant I wouldn’t want to spend the money and time on an intermediate swap to Sport coils and end up without much improvement. MPP did, however, separately reaffirm that using the Sport coils would work fine with the Comfort dampers (and mirrored the caution against Super Sports for what is technically still a family car!). Decisions, decisions…

 

[Lindenwood]

Thanks! Yeah I meant I wouldn’t want to spend the money and time on an intermediate swap to Sport coils and end up without much improvement. MPP did, however, separately reaffirm that using the Sport coils would work fine with the Comfort dampers (and mirrored the caution against Super Sports for what is technically still a family car!). Decisions, decisions…

To be clear, it is less about the money and more the fact that we still put close to 2500 miles/month on this vehicle. I am just weighing successive benefits (handling at the limit) against progressive drawbacks (specifically bump compliance). If it were just me, I’d throw on a Super Sport kit and be perfectly happy. However, what I definitely don’t want is to upgrade and get 1% faster but deal with ride complaints all the time .

 

[subieworx]

I find the MPP sport coilvoers to be very comfortable still. I have done many long tips in my car with them at a pretty low ride height and have no issues at all to report with ride comfort with the settings on full soft.

 

[stevehifi]

To be clear, it is less about the money and more the fact that we still put close to 2500 miles/month on this vehicle. I am just weighing successive benefits (handling at the limit) against progressive drawbacks (specifically bump compliance). If it were just me, I’d throw on a Super Sport kit and be perfectly happy. However, what I definitely don’t want is to upgrade and get 1% faster but deal with ride complaints all the time .

I run the Super Sports and on stock wheels/tires it rides fantastic.. it's definitely firm but fantastic damping and body control due to the increased spring rates.
This car is very heavy and any kind of lowering requires sufficient spring rates, you'll find that high speed maneuvers require even more control that's why MPP states that high spring rates helps with high speed stability.

Coupled with all the MPP arm goodies, the car becomes almost telepathic in maneuvers. If I did these kinds of rates and mods on my old 2017 BMW M3 the ride quality would be terrible, however the difference is the Tesla rear subframe isn't directly bolted onto the car's body so you have that extra isolation from the subframe bushings. Also the tesla bodyframe isn't very stiff (not alot of reinforcements) and it flexes alot (that's why alot of people complain about creaks and rattles) so that allows alot of give and softens the impacts a bit.

Of course if you start to drive with a 200TW tire on the street (that usually has a stiffer sidewall and/or harder compound - until they get warm) it will be alot harsher but I don't recommend running a 200TW tire on the street, run a cushy 300TW street tire that heats up quickly.

 

[bogdan_wrc]

if i updated the front brake pads with Unplugged road-track ones, shall i take into account to update the rear ones also?
thinking to track the car a few times this year.

 

[stevehifi]

if i updated the front brake pads with Unplugged road-track ones, shall i take into account to update the rear ones also?
thinking to track the car a few times this year.

yes matching always.. otherwise you'll have more bias on the front of the car.

 

[bogdan_wrc]

yes matching always.. otherwise you'll have more bias on the front of the car.

the regenerative braking is used from both front and rear?


what tire pressure do you recommend?
street use is 2.9bar.
track is around 4km, 10-15 degrees air temperature during the day, cloudy.

 

[dfwatt]

the regenerative braking is used from both front and rear?


what tire pressure do you recommend?
street use is 2.9bar.
track is around 4km, 10-15 degrees air temperature during the day, cloudy.

Different issue entirely but yes I believe regen always uses both front and rear motors. But the problem with replacing one set of pads only is you will end up with a brake bias which could be bad

 

[Dangerous Fish]

Different issue entirely but yes I believe regen always uses both front and rear motors. But the problem with replacing one set of pads only is you will end up with a brake bias which could be bad

Regen is mainly done using the rear motor.

 

[dfwatt]

Regen is mainly done using the rear motor.

True dat but it is apparently somewhat modifiable including by traction but also by stator overheating.

 

[UnpluggedP]

Sparking carbon bits, full braking from triple digits, front splitter throwing sparks.
Bionic Phenix is under development.
Buttonwillow Raceway 3/5/2023 Phil Hill exit...
The course dried out in the afternoon, enabling us to put down one lap, between battery state and end of the session.
Craig posted our target for this shakedown session, high-1:49s. Dipping below 1:50 with this car for the first time.
This car has a lot more to go...

 

[ElChino chan]

hi, any recomendations for ocasional track day brake pads for eu, im looking a good compromise between track performance and daily usability. good braking without the need to warm up for example. thanks in advance.

 

[MountainPass]

hi, any recomendations for ocasional track day brake pads for eu, im looking a good compromise between track performance and daily usability. good braking without the need to warm up for example. thanks in advance.

Are you allowed to use copper in the pads in the EU? Our Pagid Pads work really well and we use them in our Spanish Model 3, but we have not been through the ITV yet and I'm not sure if they would complain about the yellow pads.

They work well from cold

Here's a picture of the car from Castelloli, near Barcelona

 

[canasion35]

Are you allowed to use copper in the pads in the EU? Our Pagid Pads work really well and we use them in our Spanish Model 3, but we have not been through the ITV yet and I'm not sure if they would complain about the yellow pads.

They work well from cold

Here's a picture of the car from Castelloli, near Barcelona

Are these the 19x10 AF-10’s? Look amazing.