MASTER THREAD: FSD Subscription Available 16 Jul 2021

[Knightshade]

Again, your facts are simply wrong. What people actually wanted was the ability to have AP or AP/EAP or EAP/FSD. Instead, Tesla only gives customers in the U.S. the choice of AP or EAP/FSD. They require people to buy FSD to get EAP and therefore potentially have to pay thousands more for something they may not want.

Dude.

There is no EAP anymore.

Hasn't been for years.

They do not "require you buy FSD to get EAP"

When a new buyer- which is the thing we are discussing here with "competition" goes to buy a vehicle, there 2 choices in a Tesla:


Option 1:
AP- which comes INCLUDED STANADARD on every Tesla even the cheapest trims

The "competition" for that is the OLD Supercruise. Which is not even available on the cheapest trim GM cars. And for the more expensive trims it ends up costing you nearly $7000 above the cheap trim vehicle to get it.

Tesla is objectively better and cheaper by a lot

There's no "competition" to speak of here.



Option 2:
FSD-- which is $10,000. And available to buy on every Tesla even the cheapest trims

The "competition" for that is the NEW Supercruise. Which is not even available on the cheapest trim GMs (and not available AT ALL on most GM models). And for the more expensive trims of the few models you can even get it on- it ends up costing you north of $15,000 above the cheap trim vehicle to get it.

AND it does far less functionally than FSD does

Tesla is objectively better and cheaper by a lot

There's no "competition" to speak of here.




If you wanna rant some more about how we need to get off your EAP lawn, knock yourself out, but I dunno what you're even trying to communicate at this point and I'm not sure anyone else does either.

 

[CapeOne]

Dude.

There is no EAP anymore.

Hasn't been for years.

They do not "require you buy FSD to get EAP"

There is still EAP, many current U.S. owners have it plus you can still get it on new cars in various other countries. In the U.S., however, Tesla has chosen to require customers to buy FSD in order to get EAP; similar to how Chevrolet requires people to buy the Premier trim in order to get a Super Cruise package.

You need to stop with your nonsense "dude".

 

[Knightshade]

There is still EAP, many current U.S. owners have it

Many US owners still have a 60 kwh hour battery Model S too.

But that's irrelevant in a discussion for new buyers and competition since they haven't been available to new customers for years.

Just like EAP.

plus you can still get it on new cars in various other countries.

That's because many of the FSD features are crippled by regulations there.

But then most of the models being discussed as "competition' for FSD are not sold in those places so again irrelevant to the actual discussion.

In the U.S., however, Tesla has chosen to require customers to buy FSD in order to get EAP; similar to how Chevrolet requires people to buy the Premier trim in order to get a Super Cruise package.

Except again, that's NOT HOW THAT WORKS.

You aren't "required to buy FSD to get EAP"

EAP does not exist for those buyers.

FSD does. And is available on ALL models and ALL trims.


To get Supercruise- you are:
Restricted to only a small # of models at all (not true for Tesla)

Forced to buy the more expensive trim of those models (not true for Tesla)

Then pay more ON TOP OF THAT to get Supercruise. (and the total amount is considerably more than FSD costs for Tesla)

And you end up with:

Spending MORE than FSD costs- to get LESS features.

And that's for the "new" supercruise.

For the OLD one you still are restricted to only a very few models and trims- and have to spend almost $7000 and only get..... Basic AP. Which is STANDARD AT NO EXTRA COST on every Tesla.

You need to stop with your nonsense "dude".

you need to take your own advice

 

[CapeOne]

You aren't "required to buy FSD to get EAP"

EAP does not exist for those buyers.

Your argument contimues to be nonsense. It would be like someone from Chevrolet saying they don’t require customers to buy the Premier trim to get Super Cruise because Super Cruise simply doesn’t exist for entry (LT) model buyers. Chevrolet could offer Super Cruise on the LT just like Tesla could offer EAP for new U.S. customers but they have specifically chosen not to.

 

[Knightshade]

Your argument contimues to be nonsense

Your unwillingness to understand it doesn't make it less true I'm afraid.

. It would be like someone from Chevrolet saying they don’t require customers to buy the Premier trim to get Super Cruise because Super Cruise simply doesn’t exist for entry (LT) model buyers.

...uh... no.

Supercruise is actually available to US buyers

But only on specific models, and only if they pay the upcharge for specific trims.

EAP is literally not available to any US buyers period. And hasn't been for years.


You keep trying to make analogies that.... aren't.

 

[CapeOne]

Your unwillingness to understand it doesn't make it less true I'm afraid.

...uh... no.

Supercruise is actually available to US buyers

But only on specific models, and only if they pay the upcharge for specific trims.

EAP is literally not available to any US buyers period. And hasn't been for years.

You keep trying to make analogies that.... aren't.

As I already wrote in my previous post, Chevrolet could have made Super Cruise available on the LT just as Tesla could make EAP available to U.S. customers but they have specifically chosen not to.

Chevrolet and Tesla have BOTH chosen to require customers to buy additional feature(s) at an additional cost. In Tesla's case, they require buyers to buy FSD to get EAP. You act as if it's not even possible for Tesla to offer EAP to U.S. customers yet they could easily do so but have chosen instead to require customers to buy FSD to get EAP...as I've been saying all along.

Enough with your b.s. You posts seem to be getting even more nonsensical as time goes on.

 

[Knightshade]

As I already wrote in my previous post, Chevrolet could have made Super Cruise available on the LT

But they don't. They only make it available on the expensive trim. For almost $7000 extra. And it's the old version that does the same stuff as the no added charge basic AP on a tesla

just as Tesla could make EAP available to U.S. customers

Not, not at all "just like"

For GM, the product exists and is still sold today in the US

But only if you pay more to upgrade.

For Tesla, that product is not sold at all and does not exist for new US buyers


That's why your analogy continues not to actually be one.

(also your misunderstandings over the old vs new versions of supercruise, and how they compare to Tesla offerings, and not understanding the trim vs all model restrictions....so really there's a lot of reasons your argument doesn't work)

 

[raptor5244]

When I was referring to increased competition I was referring to the announcement from GM a few days ago where they stated 6 new models will have an option for Super Cruise in the first quarter of 2022 and 22 models by 2023. Includes trailering support as well. As other have mentioned in other posts $10k is a lot of scratch for AP folks to pickup Auto Lane Change, which is all most really want at this point. GM may be optioning additional content to get you into Super Cruise but hey, at least you get the additional content as well. I suspect Super Cruise will cost less over time as the feature moves downmarket. That is really the point. The software can't be 25% of the cost of a vehicle, it will drop as they recoup the R&D costs.

Site Maintenance

 

[Knightshade]

When I was referring to increased competition I was referring to the announcement from GM a few days ago where they stated 6 new models will have an option for Super Cruise in the first quarter of 2022 and 22 models by 2023. Includes trailering support as well.

Yes- and as pointed out, you have to add on $15,000-$25,000 in options to get it.... and then pay a monthly fee after 3 years too.

All to generally do LESS stuff than FSD does for $10,000 flat.

As other have mentioned in other posts $10k is a lot of scratch for AP folks to pickup Auto Lane Change, which is all most really want at this point.

<citation needed>

As pointed out- folks get varying value from varying features.

I rarely have any use for basic summon for example-- -but folks with narrow garages find it VERY valuable.


But even then, GM is charging you even more to get that AND restricting it only to expensive models....

I suspect Super Cruise will cost less over time as the feature moves downmarket.

Yes- we can see this in the Bolt EUV.

Where for about $6700 cost above the base model you can get the older version of Super Cruise.

Which does the same stuff the standard no added cost basic AP does on all new Teslas.


As I said before.... "competition"

 

[raptor5244]

Yes- and as pointed out, you have to add on $15,000-$25,000 in options to get it.... and then pay a monthly fee after 3 years too.

All to generally do LESS stuff than FSD does for $10,000 flat.




<citation needed>

As pointed out- folks get varying value from varying features.

I rarely have any use for basic summon for example-- -but folks with narrow garages find it VERY valuable.


But even then, GM is charging you even more to get that AND restricting it only to expensive models....




Yes- we can see this in the Bolt EUV.

Where for about $6700 cost above the base model you can get the older version of Super Cruise.

Which does the same stuff the standard no added cost basic AP does on all new Teslas.


As I said before.... "competition"

Your wait for the competition will soon be over now that Tesla has helped to wake up the rest of the auto industry. This is a good thing and will drive the cost of auto AI down, not up. Don't be surprised if Tesla FSD keeps going down in price moving forward. It already has little to no resale value and doesn't actually full self drive and Elon is even casting doubts now. I think once enough vehicles have Super Cruise Tesla will start including Auto Lane Change in AP.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2021/07/26/elon-musk-tesla-full-self-driving/

 

[qdeathstar]

To get Supercruise- you are:
Restricted to only a small # of models at all (not true for Tesla)

there are only 4 models to chose from so I would say this is true for Tesla

 

[CapeOne]

But they don't. They only make it available on the expensive trim. For almost $7000 extra. And it's the old version that does the same stuff as the no added charge basic AP on a tesla

Not, not at all "just like"

For GM, the product exists and is still sold today in the US

But only if you pay more to upgrade.

For Tesla, that product is not sold at all and does not exist for new US buyers

That's why your analogy continues not to actually be one.

(also your misunderstandings over the old vs new versions of supercruise, and how they compare to Tesla offerings, and not understanding the trim vs all model restrictions....so really there's a lot of reasons your argument doesn't work)

You’re not being logical. The EAP product exists (some current U.S. owners have it, it's offered overseas, etc.) but the issue is that Tesla currently refuses to offer it alone to its U.S. new car customers and give them a choice of EAP-only. Sometihng they could easily do. Tesla instead requires those customers to buy FSD if they want to get EAP. Tesla instead requires those customers to potentially pay thousands more for feature(s) they may not want in order to be able to get EAP.

When you're ready to have a rational conversation on this matter, let me know. Until then, I see little reason to continue participating in your silly games and keep going around in circles on this.

 

[Knightshade]

You’re not being logical.

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

The EAP product exists

Except, for new buyers, which is the actual topic

No it DOES NOT.

If you get your most basic facts wrong there's not much point reading the rest of your "argument" since it's based on wrong information.

the issue is that Tesla currently refuses to offer it alone to its U.S. new car customers

They don't offer it to anyone at all

It's a dead product in this market- just like the P85D for example.

Which ALSO exists but is irrelevant to a discussion of new cars and new car options.


What's even dumber is- if EAP was still sold here, it'd make the comparison to super cruise look even worse financially than it already does.


So even if we accepted the false premise of your argument, it would hurt your actual point.




Anyway the points you keep ignoring or not understanding are very simple.

There is no real "competition" from Supercruise.


For the OLD version (which is the only kind available on an EV from GM) you have to pay $6700 above the base model.

And you get functionality that is standard with no extra charge on every single new car Tesla sells.


That's a flat out failure to complete on GMs side.



For the NEW version (which is only available on much more expensive vehicles AT ALL-and ZERO EVs right now- and then only the higher trim versions of THOSE) your net cost to add is still between 1.5x and 2.5x more expensive than FSD while adding fewer features than FSD

So again that's a failure to compete on GMs side.


Even worse considering it'll be a monthly fee after 3 years on those GMs too.


This isn't rocket surgery man. There's no real competition here- just overpriced, objectively inferior, worse choices

 

[Knightshade]

there are only 4 models to chose from so I would say this is true for Tesla

Consider price points though.

I can get FSD on a Tesla that retails for 39.9k, so 49.9k with FSD.


AFAIK the cheapest car you can get the new supercruise on today is the CT6 and it'll run you $75,500 sticker price.

So 25 grand more, and less features... (and still a slow as heck ICE too)

This would be like if Tesla said if you want FSD you have to buy an S or X.


(note- it's allegedly "coming" to a few more models for 2022- none cheap though)

Your wait for the competition will soon be over now that Tesla has helped to wake up the rest of the auto industry.

Again we've been hearing that for a LONG LONG time and it has continued not to be true.

Don't be surprised if Tesla FSD keeps going down in price moving forward.

...keeps going down?

It has kept going up so far.

I expect it'll keep doing so as they add features.

It already has little to no resale value and doesn't actually full self drive and Elon is even casting doubts now. I think once enough vehicles have Super Cruise Tesla will start including Auto Lane Change in AP.

Given you need to add 15k-25k in options to get THAT version of supercruise, that seems unlikely.

 

[raptor5244]

For the NEW version (which is only available on much more expensive vehicles AT ALL-and ZERO EVs right now- and then only the higher trim versions of THOSE) your net cost to add is still between 1.5x and 2.5x more expensive than FSD while adding fewer features than FSD

So again that's a failure to compete on GMs side.


Even worse considering it'll be a monthly fee after 3 years on those GMs too.


This isn't rocket surgery man. There's no real competition here- just overpriced, objectively inferior, worse choices

I am referring to the upcoming GM models and we don't know the cost of entry yet on them. Maybe it will only be available on a High Country Silverado, maybe not. Pricing is easy to fix once they start to better understand the true demand for these drivers assistance features. The general consensus though is the cost will continue to drop and trickle down into lower cost models over time. Eventually, all this stuff will be baked into the price the car just like Tesla did with basic AP.

 

[raptor5244]

https://www.cars.com/articles/which-cars-have-autopilot-430356/

 

[Knightshade]

I am referring to the upcoming GM models and we don't know the cost of entry yet on them.

If it's not for sale it doesn't count.

If we're including things you can't actually get today then I get to count driving-on-city-streets for Tesla

Maybe it will only be available on a High Country Silverado, maybe not.

So far it's only been available on the higher trims of every single vehicle EITHER version of SC has been offered on. No reason to expect that to change.

Currently the only truck it's on is the Escalade. And, unsurprisingly, only the higher more expensive trims of it, not the base model.

Pricing is easy to fix once they start to better understand the true demand for these drivers assistance features. The general consensus though is the cost will continue to drop and trickle down into lower cost models over time.

I certainly expect that will be true for GM EVENTUALLY- because right now the upcharge is INSANELY higher than Teslas.

But then again right now they're doing the "We don't have to outrun the tiger, we just have to outrun YOU" thing.

Supercruise is still better than the ADAS on most legacy brands.... and Tesla doesn't make ICE vehicles... so there's really NO pricing pressure on them in this market right now.

Eventually, all this stuff will be baked into the price the car just like Tesla did with basic AP.

For the legacy companies that manage to stay in business, sure

 

[electrifyme]

Smh.. 10k upfront.. no way! Too expensive! 200/mo.. no way too expensive! Unreal. You gotta let some things slide buddy. 200 is a lot of money. But you can keep it for as little or long as you’d like. The only real idiot move on getting the subscription is if you plan to keep it reoccurring for longer then 4.5 years. At that point you’ve paid more than 10k (and will continue to pay) for a feature you could have “pre purchased”.
So, get the subscription for a year, or 6 months.. spend only a fraction of the outfront cost. This is a big win for Tesla owners if you ask me - share holders not so much lol.

It's expensive for what it is... that's all I'm saying.. When I see "FSD", it should really mean FSD L5... not driving assist. I'll purchase it when it's really what it's suppose to be.

 

[avesraggiana]

By the way, I still shake my head at the lack of Rear Cross Traffic Alert and the poor implementation of Blind Spot Monitoring in my Model 3 when you find these simple "useful" safety features work great on a Toyota Corolla or Honda Civic.

This, right here. I ended up going barrio and buying a cheap convex blind spot mirror from Autozone, for the driver’s side door mirror. Ugly as hell and tacky beyond belief, but it works. And like you said, the electronic blind spot monitoring/warning system on my old Honda Odyssey worked beautifully. That lowly minivan didn’t cost anywhere near as much as our brand new Model S or Model X, but it managed to get many, many simple things right.

 

[Kenny BR]

Until Version 9 is available to everyone, self driving is not worth it. I paid the $10,000 to have it on my Plaid and still waiting for the update.