Have you gone into the vehicle additional information screen to verify that they actually installed the FSD computer? (We saw one person had the wrong part ordered initially.)
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MASTER THREAD: FSD Subscription Available 16 Jul 2021
- Thread starter Adirondack_D
- Start date
Umm, Tesla doesn't offer FSD subscription to HW2.5 owners. They require you to become a HW3 owner, at a cost of $1000, in order to subscribe. The app literally tells you that you must upgrade before you can subscribe.
Of course, I understand you point, but I'm also pointing out that it's effectively exactly what they have done and it is antagonizing owners.
Except when it comes to running a service department, then they know how to run one precisely just under profitability on purpose, amirite?
Also, terrible at business, except when it comes to describing AP and FSD 5 years ago. When they did that, they made it perfectly clear that a car having FSD hardware capabilities means it's capable of a FSD purchase only, not a FSD subscription, and only stupid customers would get that wrong, Tesla is good at business when it comes to explaining exactly what they are selling.
Now I'm not sure where Tesla is supposedly bad at business. More details needed.
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
Well the paid hardware upgrade path to FSD subscription is the problem. The suggestion by those people is simply to not offer that hardware upgrade path to FSD subscription for current HW2.5 owners and just keep things at the status quo as it has been for years: which is pay FSD in full to access it (with no separate hardware upgrade fee).
This fixes nothing. The issue is that Tesla said all cars have the HW required for FSD capability.
Anything Tesla does to show this is not true is a problem. Don't offer path to FSD sub only for HW2 cars? Clearly not capable, damages from not being able to subscribe. Path that requires $1000 upgrade? Clearly not capable, damages from the $1k charge. All of these additionally reduce the resale value of the car, as it is a less flexible platform.
There is only one way to make Tesla's false statement about all cars having the HW capability for FSD cause no damages to customers. HW3 upgrades at no cost when the customer wishes to utilize any FSD functionality.
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You would think it was in the best interest for Tesla to upgrade them too, because then they don't have to maintain 2 different sets of AP code. But maybe they calculated that it was cheaper to do it that way .
K1Woods
Member
That would require all cars to upgrade in a short amount of time to be effective. Even if it was free not all owners will participate. Some owners even resist software updates.
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
Once again, no, you are not.
The actual facts are they've done pretty badly running that too.
They've run at a loss (often a SIGNIFICANT loss) rather than the break-even they'd been aiming for since inception.
They've made similar "OOPS WE REALLY MEANT THIS LOWER PRICE NOT THE FIRST ONE WE GAVE" mistakes on parts pricing multiple times too-- I even gave a pretty well known example from 2016.
You keep, seemingly with increasing desperation, trying to find malice in general incompetence at something.
Right.
The subscription service is a new offering that did not exist in 2016
So anyone suggesting anybody was "promised" access to it back then is... not clear on the direction in which time flows.
Anybody who has HW2.x and wants FSD without paying for any hardware can just BUY FSD AND GET EXACTLY THAT.
Just like always.
Buying FSD includes free HW upgrades if needed.
No such thing is part of the subscription product.
CapeOne
Active Member
That could appease some people but others will still continue to complain that they can't get the FSD subscription without having to pay for a HW upgrade even though they were originally told their car came equipped with the hardware for FSD.
EAP-only at a lower price would also be appealing to many who don't need a HW upgrade but I don't see Tesla bringing back an EAP-only option.
Rolling the cost of the HW upgrade into the FSD subscription would have been another way to go but there were too many scenarios to make that work and keep the price the same for all. Some subscribers won't need the HW upgrade, some getting the upgrade may only subscribe for a month and then quit, etc.
linux-works
Active Member
I dont think they have the PARTS or MANPOWER to do massive hw swaps.
even if elon was ok with it, they simply could not pull it off.
lets face it, their service is one of the sore spots that keeps being one. they can't seem to allocate enough funds to build more centers and staff them. plus, keeping more parts on hand. long wait times for repairs does not do the brand any good.
so, they are starved for just regular car maint. they just could not handle a big upgrade in hw even if they wanted to.
basically, some parts of the company need to catch up to the rest so that there's sensible balance. you need balance for proper growth.
linux-works
Active Member
here's my random idea out of the blue, on how to soften that $1k hit.
offer EAP that you get to keep, for that $1k. you can continue to 'rent' FSD or cancel at any time, but you are now at latest hw level and even if you cancel FSD, you get to enjoy (is that the right word?) EAP.
I'd almost go for it, if it was setup that way. (I already am at hw3, anyway).
give people something to keep for their $1k and maybe the adoption rate will increase.
offer EAP that you get to keep, for that $1k. you can continue to 'rent' FSD or cancel at any time, but you are now at latest hw level and even if you cancel FSD, you get to enjoy (is that the right word?) EAP.
I'd almost go for it, if it was setup that way. (I already am at hw3, anyway).
give people something to keep for their $1k and maybe the adoption rate will increase.
Does anyone know what the HW 2.5 -> HW 3.0 upgrade even does exactly? From checking out a few articles, the only apparent difference I can see is rendering enhanced visualizations on the screen.
Basically I'm wondering if it's even required for FSD to operate the way it needs to in its current form or if it's being used as a gatekeeper for the system while only actually adding some better graphics.
Basically I'm wondering if it's even required for FSD to operate the way it needs to in its current form or if it's being used as a gatekeeper for the system while only actually adding some better graphics.
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
If you mean what features does it enable with FSD on HW3 versus EAP on 2.5 then the answer, right now, is stop light and stop sign behavior.
The next differentiating feature will be driving on city streets (what is currently being called the FSDBeta that a small # of testers have)
Even HW3 is running low on compute (they've had to spill things over from node A to node B, abandoning the original redundancy plan at this point) so that stuff is never gonna run on 2.5
And likely HW3 owners will need HW4 to get beyond L2.
Based on what we've seen here this suggests buying, rather than subscribing, continues to have more value for many since the HW upgrades come with it.
Service Centers will NEVER catch up to the rest of the company if they maintain the "no profit from service" mindset.
They went away from having Superchargers be a loss (remember back in 2015 / 2016 when every fanboy SWORE that all Model 3's would have free supercharging for life?). I am not sure if they are aiming for break even on Superchargers, or profitability on Superchargers... in my opinion they should be aiming for profitability on them. The only way the Service Center problem will be resolved is if Tesla releases its grip on service allowing independent shops to have access to tools, diagnostic equipment, and parts... OR they admit communism never works and try to make money off of service centers.
Keith
This is maybe 10% of the fleet. If Tesla can't handle touching 10% of the fleet with one hour of labor in about a year, we have a huge problem if there is ever a recall of any real scale.
linux-works
Active Member
they really should partner up, at this point, with indy shops and spread out the workload.
I get why they want to keep the service and parts in-house, but this isn't scaling well and they need more coverage.
we all hate dealerships, BUT they do provide a service dept, and while its not a fun place usually, at least there are many around and you dont always worry about glass not being buyable for weeks or months, etc.
if elon truly cared about electric cars, he'd take some of his vast wealth and start a side company that JUST services cars. all non-gas and non-diesel cars, of course, but any brand, and with full service (all parts, alignment, HV stuff, etc).
he kind of did that for superchargers and for tesla-only. if he truly wanted the world to convert to electric, he could make this happen.
I'd say this is far more important than all that spacey stuff (sorry, space fans, but we have problems here down on earth that matter more).
take the fear out of converting to electric, for the general public. remove the dealer model, create a chain or association of service centers that are trained experts in electric tech. so far, no one does that. there's no good place you can count on, for service, for these 'new exotic electric thingies'. a lot of people hold back buying for this reason. and I understand and even agree that its a showstopper for most.
I get why they want to keep the service and parts in-house, but this isn't scaling well and they need more coverage.
we all hate dealerships, BUT they do provide a service dept, and while its not a fun place usually, at least there are many around and you dont always worry about glass not being buyable for weeks or months, etc.
if elon truly cared about electric cars, he'd take some of his vast wealth and start a side company that JUST services cars. all non-gas and non-diesel cars, of course, but any brand, and with full service (all parts, alignment, HV stuff, etc).
he kind of did that for superchargers and for tesla-only. if he truly wanted the world to convert to electric, he could make this happen.
I'd say this is far more important than all that spacey stuff (sorry, space fans, but we have problems here down on earth that matter more).
take the fear out of converting to electric, for the general public. remove the dealer model, create a chain or association of service centers that are trained experts in electric tech. so far, no one does that. there's no good place you can count on, for service, for these 'new exotic electric thingies'. a lot of people hold back buying for this reason. and I understand and even agree that its a showstopper for most.
Unfortunately I think Tesla will soon be forced to change its poor business practices. Let's be clear on facts again. If you bought a 2018 Model 3 you were told it had the proper hardware to do FSD, period. That was a promise of future compatibility as my 2018 had EAP and had every feature of the FSD before all other offers for free hardware upgrades which is still irrelevant. All the nonsense about what Tesla said after this means nothing as has been mentioned before. In fact I was offered on my app $2000 for lifetime FSD. Interesting since that would mean only $500 for lifetime FSD over the $1500 upgrade offer and $1000 over the $1000 upgrade revision offer. Now back to facts.. I bought a car advertised to have the hardware for full FSD. I can not sell that car and say the same thing as it does not have that hardware and Tesla needs to make good on that fact. Look at how poorly managed the Tesla "business" is run, they have a dartboard they use for pricing and then go back and change it days later with no long-term customer retention strategy other than an arbitration clause.
Crazy contradictions but the facts sit that they sold me a car "equipped" for FSD, not one contingent on anything else and it does not matter how anyone feels about that or what offers came later, etc, etc as my car is not equipped to do that unless they can release the FSD features today on the existing hardware.
Crazy contradictions but the facts sit that they sold me a car "equipped" for FSD, not one contingent on anything else and it does not matter how anyone feels about that or what offers came later, etc, etc as my car is not equipped to do that unless they can release the FSD features today on the existing hardware.
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linux-works
Active Member
thought just occurred to me; when you remove old hw ecu's, they are pretty much useless. you can send to scrap or even destroy, if it has secure info inside and you dont want to deal with secure erase.
given that this kind of problem wont go away (ever!) - there should be more thought in the design phase so that when you remove old hw, it can go somewhere useful. be repurposed to compute something, somewhere, in some useful way.
some ecu's can be made to be useful. others that are pure body control, less so. but compute based modules might be useable in something.
if the cost wasn't a total loss, to remove from customer cars, then maybe the sustainability of the continual upgrades wont be so bad.
these ARE computers. anyone who had computers before laptops knew that we swapped lots of parts in and out, and kept the main chassis for as long as we could. cars are now like that, even though its only the vendor that swaps hw in and out.
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
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