MASTER THREAD: FSD Subscription Available 16 Jul 2021

[Fourdoor]

I mean it literally tells you during the purchase the current features are not autonomous and require supervision-- which is L2.




To my knowledge no official communication, nor anything shown during the sales process, ever promised SAE Level 5.

Even the most full featured promises (pre 3/19) would most fairly be read as L4. ("almost all circumstances")

What do the English words "Full Self Drive" mean? In English they mean SAE Level 5.

In Tesla speak they mean "what ever he hell we are offering at the moment" aka SAE level 2.

A customer should not have to pars out what the current advertising copy says and compare that to what the SAE standards are in order to figure out what Tesla is actually selling them for $10,000 (soon to be more).

Keith

 

[Gor-Gor]

What do the English words "Full Self Drive" mean? In English they mean SAE Level 5.

In Tesla speak they mean "what ever he hell we are offering at the moment" aka SAE level 2.

Keith

AP means full self driving as well though, that is the problem with their terminology.

 

[EVDRVN]

A free HW upgrade for one



Nobody ever promised you would be able to subscribe to FSD.

You can still get FSD, at no hardware cost, by BUYING it.

Just like you could the day you bought the car.

Never said any of the above. I was promised hardware with certain capability and I don't have that. A free hardware upgrade should be given regardless of subcription etc,

You keep saying the same thing over and over... and not making a real point.

If he went to court and the judge asked what the damage is, all he has to say is they refused to sell him a subscription to FSD. That is the damage. He isn't CHOSING to not purchase a FSD subscription, he is being denied the opportunity to purchase the FSD subscription until he pays for the hardware he was told was already in the car when he purchased the car. You can repeat the same thing until you are blue in the face but it doesn't make it true. Will most people have the fortitude to actually take this to small claims court? No. Will anyone who does take it to small claims court have a good chance of being compensated (not guaranteed mind you, I said "have a good chance") Yes.

Most important of all. What is your skin in this game? Why are you so adamant on cluttering up this thread with irrelevant drivel?

I have zero skin in the HW 2.5 vs HW 3 game and couldn't give two shits... I am only replying because I am sick of seeing your posts on the subject but find your other comments to be readable and sometimes entertaining. On general principle I avoid blocking people, and I do not want to have to block you to avoid this crap.

Keith

Could not agree more on all points, well said. Many people side with Tesla no matter what and Tesla has arbitration agreements and pays the arbitrators to get around their nonsense .

 

[Knightshade]

What do the English words "Full Self Drive" mean? In English they mean SAE Level 5.

Can I sue McDonalds if my happy meal does not make me happy- and present the dictionary definition of happy as evidence in court?

Can I sue radio flyer if my wagon neither receives radio, nor flies?

Can I sue Diaper Genie if it does not grant wishes?

A customer should not have to pars out what the current advertising copy says and compare that to what the SAE standards

You're right- they shouldn't.

And they don't have to.

Tesla is super clear what they are selling.

A system that is not autonomous and requires constant driver supervision

You don't need to know anything about SAE levels to understand that.

You keep saying the same thing over and over... and not making a real point.

I would submit a few folks inability to understand the point does not make it any less real

If he went to court and the judge asked what the damage is, all he has to say is they refused to sell him a subscription to FSD. That is the damage.

No. It literally is not

Nobody has a "right" to buy an optional subscription that didn't even exist when they purchased their car. You have suffered NO damage whatever by not being eligible for it.

Most of the population of earth is not eligible for it.

Again your refusal to consider basic concepts of our legal system leaves you not understanding why your argument is nonsensical and counter to fact.

Will anyone who does take it to small claims court have a good chance of being compensated (not guaranteed mind you, I said "have a good chance") Yes.

No. They won't.

Because their provable damages are $0.00

Most important of all. What is your skin in this game? Why are you so adamant on cluttering up this thread with irrelevant drivel?

Correcting your misinformation seems pretty relevant.

I have zero skin in the HW 2.5 vs HW 3 game and couldn't give two shits...

So you don't care- but you keep repeating the same factually inaccurate claims over and over?

While ALSO demanding to know why OTHER people care?

That's... an odd choice.

 

[Knightshade]

Never said any of the above. I was promised hardware with certain capability and I don't have that.

Which is not legally relevant if you haven't purchased the software to enable that capability.

If you bought FSD, and Tesla THEN asked for hardware money- you'd have a clear-cut lawsuit you'd be likely to easily win.

But that's not the case.

Buying FSD- the only method of acquiring it that existed when you bought your car- comes with any needed HW upgrades free

It's built into the price. And remains available to those folks just like the day they bought the car. They have lost literally nothing so are unable to prove any damages by the existence of the subscription offering.


The subscription is a new service that has no HW upgrades built into the price and as such, only those with the correct HW already in the car are deemed eligible to subscribe to it. Nobody with old hardware was ever promised they could access FSD via subscription, jus that they could buy FSD. And they still can.

If Tesla REMOVED the purchase option, you might ALSO have a case, since you'd no longer have the $0-HW-cost way to access FSD you previously had. But they haven't done that either.

 

[GlockWorkOrnge]

Do you?

Because my recollection of Musk making that promise was he did so on the day they announced AP2- October 19th, 2016.

If he promised that before then, on AP1, I'd love to see a source on it.

(and even then- it wasn't a "promise" so much as he said it was an aspirational goal he felt good about)




The fact Tesla does not advertise might be relevant here.

Also the fact that "Random speculative forward-looking stuff Elon says generally" isn't really the same as "The company officially promised someone X in exchange for Y" that you'd need for legal action.

The other day I asked someone for Tesla's definition of FSD, as anyone who's been to law school will tell you in 1st year contracts the first thing you learn is what a contract is.

It's a series of promises. I promise X and in return you promise Y.

Our promise is we'll give you money. Clearly. What is the Tesla promise?

You will get FSD, which is told to you in vague terms. It described what FSD will do in detail, but it doesn't tell you when you will have it.

Also, Tesla tells you FSD is a driver assistive feature. It says that explicitly.

Caveat emptor. You're not going to see a successful lawsuit over this issue. Ever. One might be filed, but you're not going to win that in the United States.

I did subscribe to the FSD package and I have watched the Beta 9 videos. I am very sorry to say true autonomy, like level 5, isn't coming any time soon.

I think it's also fair to ask whether FSD cars is even a good social policy.

 

[rxlawdude]

Eventually, your Tesla will be able to drive anywhere across the country to meet you, charging itself along the way. It will sync with your calendar to know exactly when to arrive.

The release of Tesla Version 7.1 software is the next step toward developing fully autonomous driving capabilities and delivering them through over-the-air software updates, keeping our customers at the forefront of driving technology in the years ahead.

I'm not sure what the confusion is.

 

[Daniel in SD]

I'm not sure what the confusion is.

Yep, maybe Tesla still has an intern validating the L5 software for AP1 hardware. Eventually they'll get it working.

 

[Matias]

I mean it literally tells you during the purchase the current features are not autonomous and require supervision-- which is L2.

What does “full self driving “
literally tell you?

 

[Knightshade]

What does “full self driving “
literally tell you?

The same thing "happy meal", "radio flyer", and "diaper genie" do.... that a company is selling a product with that name, and if I want to know what's actually in it I should read the product description.


I mean- do you also think Southwest Airlines never flies north?

 

[Matias]

The other day I asked someone for Tesla's definition of FSD, as anyone who's been to law school will tell you in 1st year contracts the first thing you learn is what a contract is.

It's a series of promises. I promise X and in return you promise Y.

Our promise is we'll give you money. Clearly. What is the Tesla promise?

You will get FSD, which is told to you in vague terms. It described what FSD will do in detail, but it doesn't tell you when you will have it.

This page, which is archived 6th of September 2019

Autopilot

Learn how to use Autopilot on the Model S, Model X and Model 3.

web.archive.org

Says

• Coming later this year:
  • Automatic driving on city streets

Isn’t that very clear promise of when buyer will receive

“Automatic driving on city streets”?

 

[Knightshade]

Isn’t that very clear promise of when buyer will receive

“Automatic driving on city streets”?

Yes.

I mentioned that as one of the few actually actionable things Tesla ever promised a date for and has not delivered (though the current FSDBeta is exactly that, so they are still developing it).

I'm not sure how you could quantify exactly how much your "damage" is by that being at least 18 months late-- but you'd at least have an actual fact to base your case on.

I think absolute max you could sue for would probably be for them to refund your FSD purchase, with standard interest on the money. More likely you could only get a small fraction of that since they did deliver 6 out of the 7 specific promised features, just not that one.

 

[stopcrazypp]

What do the English words "Full Self Drive" mean? In English they mean SAE Level 5.

In Tesla speak they mean "what ever he hell we are offering at the moment" aka SAE level 2.

A customer should not have to pars out what the current advertising copy says and compare that to what the SAE standards are in order to figure out what Tesla is actually selling them for $10,000 (soon to be more).

Keith

Nit pick, but it actually can mean L4 too in colloquial speech. However given this is all a new thing and the definitions are not well established in general use (you see this a lot in journalist definition of L4 and L5, they use whatever they feel like), I doubt that's something that can hold up in court.

 

[Az_Rael]

With none of those promises (from official tesla communications) having delivery dates, a false advertising suit would be difficult- especially when the fine print has always conditioned delivery of those features on actual data showing they'd been developed to a certain level of safety not yet achieved.

They didn’t add the safety language until later. Nevertheless, there is an argument that Tesla needs to deliver the features within a reasonable timeframe within the life of the car. A court would have to decide what reasonable means in that context. Is it 5 years, the average length of time people own cars? Is it 20 years? They are pushing that 5 year timeline now. Folks that leased 2016 cars with FSD have already turned the cars back in with just a life lesson about believing Tesla hype I suppose. The other question is did they know in 2016 that they were years from delivering on FSD? Only internal documents would tell us that, so it will remain a mystery.

My prediction: Tesla will soon release AP4, it will take a “spinal transplant” to upgrade the old cars, so they will just wash their hands of AP 2 and 3 like they did AP 1. Folks will sue, Tesla will settle out of court like they have done previously and we all get $20 coupons for Tesla accessories. Tesla continues to sell cars like gangbusters. A new awesome self driving video is released. Folks buy Enhanced FSD with their next Tesla and the cycle begins anew.

 

[Knightshade]

They didn’t add the safety language until later.

This is the language they had when FSD very first went on sale in 2016-

Even then it said the self-driving functions were dependent on extensive software validation (though they didn't have the "x times safer" specifics yet)

FSDBeta would be a clear showing they're still working through that validation and not done yet.

And even in 2016 they were pointing out it's "not possible to know exactly when each element of the functionality described above will be available"


(the funniest bit from this 2016 relic of course is the reference to the Tesla network, "details of which will be released next year")

Nevertheless, there is an argument that Tesla needs to deliver the features within a reasonable timeframe within the life of the car.

I agree there's an argument there. If it's a winning one (given the "not possible to know" language)) would be for a court to decide.

A court would have to decide what reasonable means in that context. Is it 5 years, the average length of time people own cars?

FWIW average length of car ownership is actually 6 years... (well, 71.4 months, as of a year or so ago, I suspect a little longer today, so 6 years)

The other question is did they know in 2016 that they were years from delivering on FSD? Only internal documents would tell us that, so it will remain a mystery.

Yes- THAT would make a huge difference.

To an outside observer it appears Elon is just perpetually time optimistic but generally believes his own nonsense predictions. If discovery in a case finds solid paper trails saying otherwise that totally changes the script.

My prediction: Tesla will soon release AP4, it will take a “spinal transplant” to upgrade the old cars, so they will just wash their hands of AP 2 and 3 like they did AP 1.

Apples and cannonballs.

It was impossible for them to do much with AP1 after the mobileye breakup... Tesla didn't have access/ownership of the relevant code.

Since then, besides in-housing the code, they made a point of maintaining physical computer compatibility. HW2, HW2.5, HW3, HW 3.1, HW 3.2... all physically plug in the same place and are physically interchangeable.

It seems highly likely HW4, which was already under development when HW3 was released, will be the same thing.

And from what we know about buy vs subscribe seems likely the FSD buyers will get the upgrade free, and the subscribers will not.

 

[Fourdoor]

Can I sue McDonalds if my happy meal does not make me happy- and present the dictionary definition of happy as evidence in court?

Can I sue radio flyer if my wagon neither receives radio, nor flies?

Can I sue Diaper Genie if it does not grant wishes?




You're right- they shouldn't.

And they don't have to.

Tesla is super clear what they are selling.

A system that is not autonomous and requires constant driver supervision

You don't need to know anything about SAE levels to understand that.





I would submit a few folks inability to understand the point does not make it any less real




No. It literally is not

Nobody has a "right" to buy an optional subscription that didn't even exist when they purchased their car. You have suffered NO damage whatever by not being eligible for it.

Most of the population of earth is not eligible for it.

Again your refusal to consider basic concepts of our legal system leaves you not understanding why your argument is nonsensical and counter to fact.




No. They won't.

Because their provable damages are $0.00




Correcting your misinformation seems pretty relevant.




So you don't care- but you keep repeating the same factually inaccurate claims over and over?

While ALSO demanding to know why OTHER people care?

That's... an odd choice.

You know what Full Self Drive means? You are one up on Tesla then! Tesla per your own posts on the subject has changed what it means year by year. It used to mean SAE level 4 (quite possibly worth the price they were asking), now it means SAE level 2 (no way in hell that is worth 10K) Ask any person on the street if Tesla has self driving cars, and if they know what a Tesla is, they will say Yes. If you ask the same person if a Radio Flyer wagon flies or has a radio they will say no. If you ask the same person if a diaper Genie grants wishes they will look at you like you shouldn't be allowed out of the house without a helmet. I know you are not dumb, so stop playing dumb.

Tesla is super clear? Since when? The public at large thinks Tesla has self driving cars. Half the people on this forum think Tesla already exceeds SAE Level 3 and get bent out of shape when you say that FSD is SAE Level 2. Does anyone in their right mind pay $10,000 for an SAE Level 2 system? Or are they misled if not out right lied to with promises of "Full Self Drive" being "just a few months away" for the past several years?

Sure you have the right to buy a subscription. Why wouldn't you? Are you a second class citizen of some kind unworthy of purchasing something from the company that sold you a car claiming that it had a FSD capable computer? You are completely missing the point. The HW 2.5 cars should be upgraded, all of them. Not just the cars of people who want to subscribe to FSD, or the people who want to purchase FSD, ALL OF THEM. The Hardware they were provided does not meet the capabilities they were promised when they purchased the car. Period. You are the one who seems to not understand the legal system even a little bit. Your arguments are nonsensical and counter to fact.

Lets do this by plausible analogy. If Tesla sells you a car with a tow hitch rated at 3,500 lbs, and then after the fact they say "oops, it can only tow 1,000 lbs, but the cars with the NEW 3,500 lb tow hitch can tow 3,500 lbs... For all of you with the OLD 3,500 lb tow hitch if you purchase a 3,500 lb trailer from us we will upgrade your old tow hitch for free, otherwise go screw yourself" do you think people would have a case for the car not meeting the specifications provided when the car was purchased? This is 100% about hardware, the software running on the car is irrelevant regarding the capabilities of the hardware provided and the claims about that hardware when it was purchased.

Only Facebook, Google, YouTube, and Twitter have the right to decide what is and is not misinformation! Heretic! Heretic! Heretic! Our silicon valley tech overlords are going to come get you!

The fact that you think you are correct does not make the things you disagree with "misinformation". I honestly hope the protagonist in this story does take this to small claims court, and wins, just to blow your mind with the concept that you are not always right.

Same thing over and over? I think this is my second, perhaps third at most post on the subject... what is your post count on this issue?

Let me repeat, No Dog In The Fight... I just want you to pull a Frozen and let it go!

Keith

 

[Knightshade]

You know what Full Self Drive means? You are one up on Tesla then! Tesla per your own posts on the subject has changed what it means year by year.

yes- just as sometimes radio flyer changed the specs on their wagon.

Or McDonalds changed the options on their happy meal.

Hence it's important to read the description of what you are actually buying when you buy it

That is, in fact, exactly the point

It used to mean SAE level 4 (quite possibly worth the price they were asking), now it means SAE level 2

To be fair, it used to mean "at least" L4, and now means "at least" L2.

Tesla has clearly stated aspirations to offer more- they just haven't legally committed to doing so.

(no way in hell that is worth 10K)

**in your opinion.

Obviously it is to some, since they paid it.

Further- they might, with some justification, believe that price will keep going up if/when Tesla adds more, and more advanced, features... so they also see value not just in todays features-- but in locking in the price.

Surely it'll cost more when city streets, even L2, is widely released- so if they want that why not buy now to be safe?


Not everyone will value things like that, but that's why value is subjective.

Ask any person on the street if Tesla has self driving cars, and if they know what a Tesla is, they will say Yes.

Ask any person on the street any one of 50 common knowledge things they SHOULD know, and a fair amount will get them wrong.

I'm not sure what legal standard you're trying to imply with "Ask a rando on a street corner"

If you ask the same person if a Radio Flyer wagon flies or has a radio they will say no.

I bet most of them will say 'What the hell is a radio flyer" actually.

But even if you find one who does, I'm not sure how your answer is relevant.

Radio Flyer has been around 80+ years, and sold over -100,000,000 wagons-

FSD has been around 5 years, and has sold to, at best, maybe 0.1% that number of customers.

If you ask the same person if a diaper Genie grants wishes they will look at you like you shouldn't be allowed out of the house without a helmet. I know you are not dumb, so stop playing dumb.

I agree one of us is doing that. I don't agree on whom it is.

Tesla is super clear? Since when?

Since always.

The page lists a specific bullet point of features. That's clear.

It tells you, multiple times, these DO NOT MAKE THE CAR AUTONOMOUS and HUMAN SUPERVISION IS REQUIRED.

It tells you that AGAIN in the manual.

And AGAIN when you enable AP features in the first place.

And AGAIN -every- time you turn on AP.

If you're STILL somehow not aware then that helmet idea starts to look really wise.

The public at large thinks Tesla has self driving cars.

A lot of the public at large think Trump won in 2020 too.

You again seem to lack a useful point.

Half the people on this forum think Tesla already exceeds SAE Level 3

<citation needed>

Sure you have the right to buy a subscription. Why wouldn't you?

Because that's not how rights work?

Why WOULD you?

The company creating the subscription gets to set the eligibility.

You are completely missing the point.

Again- this is true of one of us. We disagree about whom.

You are the one who seems to not understand the legal system even a little bit. Your arguments are nonsensical and counter to fact.

This is directly contradicted by my own posts, and yours, where you don't seem to even know what a right is.

 

[rxlawdude]

You know what Full Self Drive means? You are one up on Tesla then! Tesla per your own posts on the subject has changed what it means year by year. It used to mean SAE level 4 (quite possibly worth the price they were asking), now it means SAE level 2 (no way in hell that is worth 10K) Ask any person on the street if Tesla has self driving cars, and if they know what a Tesla is, they will say Yes. If you ask the same person if a Radio Flyer wagon flies or has a radio they will say no. If you ask the same person if a diaper Genie grants wishes they will look at you like you shouldn't be allowed out of the house without a helmet. I know you are not dumb, so stop playing dumb.

Tesla is super clear? Since when? The public at large thinks Tesla has self driving cars. Half the people on this forum think Tesla already exceeds SAE Level 3 and get bent out of shape when you say that FSD is SAE Level 2. Does anyone in their right mind pay $10,000 for an SAE Level 2 system? Or are they misled if not out right lied to with promises of "Full Self Drive" being "just a few months away" for the past several years?

Sure you have the right to buy a subscription. Why wouldn't you? Are you a second class citizen of some kind unworthy of purchasing something from the company that sold you a car claiming that it had a FSD capable computer? You are completely missing the point. The HW 2.5 cars should be upgraded, all of them. Not just the cars of people who want to subscribe to FSD, or the people who want to purchase FSD, ALL OF THEM. The Hardware they were provided does not meet the capabilities they were promised when they purchased the car. Period. You are the one who seems to not understand the legal system even a little bit. Your arguments are nonsensical and counter to fact.

Lets do this by plausible analogy. If Tesla sells you a car with a tow hitch rated at 3,500 lbs, and then after the fact they say "oops, it can only tow 1,000 lbs, but the cars with the NEW 3,500 lb tow hitch can tow 3,500 lbs... For all of you with the OLD 3,500 lb tow hitch if you purchase a 3,500 lb trailer from us we will upgrade your old tow hitch for free, otherwise go screw yourself" do you think people would have a case for the car not meeting the specifications provided when the car was purchased? This is 100% about hardware, the software running on the car is irrelevant regarding the capabilities of the hardware provided and the claims about that hardware when it was purchased.

Only Facebook, Google, YouTube, and Twitter have the right to decide what is and is not misinformation! Heretic! Heretic! Heretic! Our silicon valley tech overlords are going to come get you!

The fact that you think you are correct does not make the things you disagree with "misinformation". I honestly hope the protagonist in this story does take this to small claims court, and wins, just to blow your mind with the concept that you are not always right.

Same thing over and over? I think this is my second, perhaps third at most post on the subject... what is your post count on this issue?

Let me repeat, No Dog In The Fight... I just want you to pull a Frozen and let it go!

Keith

Again, if you believe anyone who bought FSD has a case, test the belief in Small Claims Court and report back.

Anyone buying after the announcement that all cars were already FSD-Ready (hardware wise) and got FSD 2.x likely has a viable argument for getting the FSD subscription without a hardware charge. Sometimes it seems Tesla is its own worst PR department.

 

[AndreP]

Can I sue McDonalds if my happy meal does not make me happy- and present the dictionary definition of happy as evidence in court?

Can I sue radio flyer if my wagon neither receives radio, nor flies?

Can I sue Diaper Genie if it does not grant wishes?

Dude you can sue for anything, the question is whether you can convince a judge (or however these lawsuits work) that you were led to believe happy meals would make you happy, radio flyer wagons would pick up radiowaves and fly, or diaper genies would grant you wishes.

Those seem like a real stretch and the products in question don't cost an individual thousands of dollars or come with safety implications.

Between Tesla's FSD descriptions and Elon putting timeframes on many of these things via social media, I believe you'd have a much easier time convincing a judge/others that you were sold a product with a promise of future functionality that hasn't materialized and quite possibly won't materialize within the lifetime of the vehicles. Those would probably be considered forward-looking statements, which are regulated through securities law and a huge risk in the business world although I don't know what the implications may be of engaging in them on social media rather than through official business channels.

Considering Elon's power and influence via social media and Tesla's lack of a PR department, I think that would also be easy to convince people of.

 

[FloridaJohn]

Apples and cannonballs.

It was impossible for them to do much with AP1 after the mobileye breakup... Tesla didn't have access/ownership of the relevant code.

Since then, besides in-housing the code, they made a point of maintaining physical computer compatibility. HW2, HW2.5, HW3, HW 3.1, HW 3.2... all physically plug in the same place and are physically interchangeable.

It seems highly likely HW4, which was already under development when HW3 was released, will be the same thing.

And from what we know about buy vs subscribe seems likely the FSD buyers will get the upgrade free, and the subscribers will not.

You are assuming that additional sensors will not be needed in the future. Or that existing sensors may have to be moved to be more effective.

One example would be the addition of cameras up by the headlights that look for cross traffic instead of making the car pull forward into an intersection to see if it can cross the street. Or maybe they move the B pillar cameras to the A pillars.

That's when we start talking about "spinal transplants" as wiring harnesses do not exist in those locations today. That's when it gets too expensive to retrofit a new system into existing cars.