MASTER THREAD: FSD Subscription Available 16 Jul 2021

[stopcrazypp]

Ok. If you check the site without logging in, it says “Upcoming”.

I'm not logged in, but I am in the USA. It may be different for other countries because no way they are launching everywhere this year (esp. in countries they haven't even done beta testing yet).

 

[Fourdoor]

Or I was inebriated and didn’t really care... but uh... sure I appreciate the deep analsys...

That is the best option of all, how could I have doubted you!

Keith

 

[Fourdoor]

That is precisely why I mentioned those. Don’t assume no one is paying attention.

I think you are grossly underestimating how much work it takes to make a reliable, automotive quality wiring harness. Installation would require adding new fuses to supply power to the new sensors, locations for reliable grounds, plus the wires back to the computer for the sensor outputs. You aren’t going to end up with a reliable wiring harness by just “tapping into” existing wiring.

Someone installing this harness would have to open up nearly every part of the car. I would be very surprised if Tesla would be willing to take something like this on.

As a master of cludging things together that work well when completed, with the resources at Tesla I could make something workable to retrofit older cars with more cameras if needed for HW4.

Take out the rear looking fender camera and replace it with a dual camera (rear facing and outward facing) with a built in switching circuit that looks at one camera for half a second (or less depending on processor requirements) and then looks at the other camera for half a second alternating back and forth. Both signals travel to the HW4 computer down the same wire... a bit of programing and Voila! You have a car with side looking cameras to avoid having to creep through intersections. The HW4 computer can handle the split data stream Depending on processor requirements for each image source, you could "double up" other existing cameras as well if needed.

Keith

 

[rxlawdude]

If you don’t think Tesla said all cars produced would have hardware capable of fsd, could you translate this from English to whatever language you speak?

“All Tesla vehicles produced in our factory, including Model 3, have the hardware needed for full self-driving capability at a safety level substantially greater than that of a human driver.”

My prediction (and hope) is that Tesla will drop the hardware upgrade charge. But I would bet that some minimum commitment to the subscription will be required. While that's getting to the "perhaps reasonable" level, the language over FSD hardware here is so different than the debate over FSD software that there isn't much wiggle room for Tesla.

This one I believe will be continue to hit the media negatively, and there's precedent (MCU1 failures) for Tesla reversing charges for those who paid for what became gratis.

 

[Fourdoor]

Ok explain me what I am wrong? If I paid for FSD in full and it's not working for what I paid for?

Nevermind, clarified in your later posts.

Keith

 

[Fourdoor]

Believe it or not, and it pains me to say this, but I have upvoted several of his posts. But yeah, more downvotes than upvotes, and he's clearly shown he's trolling for controversy. It is a very rare few that get muted, and he is numero uno on the ignore list. My TMC visits are much more pleasant now.

I am not looking down on the idea of muting someone if it bothers you to read his posts, perfectly understandable. I am just confused as to weather you have him on ignore or not. If you do have him on ignore, then you can't see his posts... so you would have no motive to up vote or down vote a post he makes...

Keith

 

[rxlawdude]

The marketing term "Full Self Drive" seems incredibly deceptive to me, but the legal experts in this thread keep saying I am not correct

You just answered with your own correction: "marketing term," which is not necessarily a contractual obligation (especially when well qualified). Tesla does have a contractual obligation to eventually release the full functionality of FSD (i.e., steering and turning on city streets) after it's been validated (i.e., the current v9 beta testers).

Now, there's an additional potential claim for those who bought and paid for FSD prior to 2019 that L4 type functionality is the end product to be delivered. After the term was "autosteer on city streets," Tesla could say that's the end of the line. But then there are those owners from prior days to deal with.

Fun times ahead.

 

[rxlawdude]

I am not looking down on the idea of muting someone if it bothers you to read his posts, perfectly understandable. I am just confused as to weather you have him on ignore or not. If you do have him on ignore, then you can't see his posts... so you would have no motive to up vote or down vote a post he makes...

Keith

Ah, but there are exceptions to the muted, apparently. I assure you he's ignored. Try ignoring anyone on this thread and refresh the view of this page. Replies seem to be an exception (when someone replies to the muted one) where it indicates the muted username. Apparently, if the muted party responds directly to one's message, it appears regardless of the mute.

At least, that's the best explanation of why I occasionally see the muted person's spew.

 

[Fourdoor]

You just answered with your own correction: "marketing term," which is not necessarily a contractual obligation (especially when well qualified). Tesla does have a contractual obligation to eventually release the full functionality of FSD (i.e., steering and turning on city streets) after it's been validated (i.e., the current v9 beta testers).

Now, there's an additional potential claim for those who bought and paid for FSD prior to 2019 that L4 type functionality is the end product to be delivered. After the term was "autosteer on city streets," Tesla could say that's the end of the line. But then there are those owners from prior days to deal with.

Fun times ahead.

I understand what FSD really is, but I feel sorry for those who do not and I wish Tesla used less predatory methodology. Back when they were actually saying they had Level 4 autonomy in development I was perfectly OK with them using the name "Full Self Drive"... now the same name is applies to a fairly basic Level 2 system with the possibility of a fairly advanced Level 2 system "just a few months from now"... this is in no way shape or form "Full Self Drive" but they are using that same name still today.

I can see a legal challenges (but I am probably wrong) on the grounds that they used the same name for their currently in development Level 2 system that they used when they had a level 4 system in development. To use my goofy tow hitch analogy again, it is like they were in the process of developing a 10,000 lb towing capacity hitch, but were only mounting a 1,000 lb towing capacity hitch on the car called "The 10K" with the implied promise of upgrading it to 10,000 lb capacity at some time in the near future when they finished development. They are now selling a car with a 1,000 lb capacity hitch, with the implied promise of upgrading it to 2,500 lbs in the near future... but they are still calling it "The 10K"

Keith

 

[rxlawdude]

I understand what FSD really is, but I feel sorry for those who do not and I wish Tesla used less predatory methodology.

I can see a legal challenges (but I am probably wrong) on the grounds that they used the same name for their currently in development Level 2 system that they used when they had a level 4 system in development. To use my goofy tow hitch analogy again, it is like they were in the process of developing a 10,000 lb towing capacity hitch, but were only mounting a 1,000 lb towing capacity hitch on the car called "The 10K" with the implied promise of upgrading it to 10,000 lb capacity at some time in the near future when they finished development. They are now selling a car with a 1,000 lb capacity hitch, with the implied promise of upgrading it to 2,500 lbs in the near future... but they are still calling it "The 10K"

Keith

Interesting idea, but (and I could be wrong - this is the US system of justice we're talking about) the analogy doesn't really fit. And Tesla's marketing materials weren't implied promises - they came out and said what it would do, eventually and IF software was validated and any regulatory limitations were removed.

A lot of wiggle room. In your example, if the written contract stated The 10K, as installed in your vehicle today is limited to 1,000 lb; however, we expect the 10K hitch will be available within xyz months/days and will notify you by mail when it is, it's clear and unambiguous.

Unlike the situation with FSD.

 

[Fourdoor]

Interesting idea, but (and I could be wrong - this is the US system of justice we're talking about) the analogy doesn't really fit. And Tesla's marketing materials weren't implied promises - they came out and said what it would do, eventually and IF software was validated and any regulatory limitations were removed.

A lot of wiggle room. In your example, if the written contract stated The 10K, as installed in your vehicle today is limited to 1,000 lb; however, we expect the 10K hitch will be available within xyz months/days and will notify you by mail when it is, it's clear and unambiguous.

Unlike the situation with FSD.

You reply too fast for me to get my edits in!

As clarified via the edit to my first paragraph, my main issue is them using the same name for a much less capable (and less worthy of the name) product.

Keith

 

[linux-works]

Sorry you are wrong. Tesla was very clear up front and this is considered to be "IN SPEC". You need to lear this term

sad to see yet another customer was Tucker'ed.

 

[S&B's M3]

So just for kicks, I went to my Tesla account and hit the upgrade button and then subscriptions available and there was the monthly FSD subscription. I hit it and as expected, it told me that I needed a HW upgrade.... but it wasn't for $1,500, it was only for $1,000:

 

[Knightshade]

I am not so sure. During the autonomy day presentation they talked about how they were constrained when designing the HW3 computer because it HAD to be retrofittable. They stated HW4 didn’t have those constraints.

I don't believe they did but if you have a time stamp for the video I'd love to hear it.

My recollection is the only mention of HW4 at all was that it'd be 3x more powerful, and was about 2 years out, and they didn't discuss it further.

Is it possible to switch computers? Let's say someone has a totalled car with FSD. Could they take out the computer and put it into car that had 2.5 hardware and would it work?

If they worked for Tesla and had the tools and access to do so, yes it would work.

That's literally what all the 2.5 owners who bought FSD got. A HW3 computer switched in.

I do not believe it would work for someone with no root access to the system-- though possibly @verygreen could confirm.

That is precisely why I mentioned those. Don’t assume no one is paying attention.

I think you are grossly underestimating how much work it takes to make a reliable, automotive quality wiring harness

I think you're grossly overestimating it. Especially in a Tesla where there's good sized wiring troughs throughout the vehicle if they need to add something, and the newer computers have upgraded from 100mb to gigabit ethernet links so they could handle PLENTY more data coming in from more sensors if need be.

. Installation would require adding new fuses

No, it wouldn't.

The car doesn't have any fuses.

Tesla uses smart MOSFETs to control the 12V circuits.

You might wanna read up on how the vehicle works before discussing further.

I've personally seen cars marked as 'do not fix, scrap only' that their only problem was an out of date harness system.

blew my mind, but as I talked to more and more 'car guys' at work, it seems this is a fact. harness cost and labor and how deeply buried it is in the latest cars, changing it out or making major mods is a non-starter.

(its also an argument why reducing harness complexity is a goal they all seek, but its mostly talk; and if we end up with true redundancy, it will actually get 'worse', since 2x as many wires (perhaps) are needed in asil-d circuits).

Teslas wiring harnesses are an area they've been working on pretty hard.

Total wiring length in the Model 3 at launch was half what it was in the Model S for example.

Tesla has patents on newer systems using vastly less wire than that too (like another 15x reduction in length) but I don't think it has appeared in any vehicles yet.

If you don’t think Tesla said all cars produced would have hardware capable of fsd, could you translate this from English to whatever language you speak?

“All Tesla vehicles produced in our factory, including Model 3, have the hardware needed for full self-driving capability at a safety level substantially greater than that of a human driver.”

My apologies I misread your question.

I thought you were asking if I believed the statement was true (which I did not, and pointed out nobody should have who was buying a 3, since they'd already admitted and shown it wasn't true before 3s were being delivered to real customers).

Instead you asked if I believe they ever made the statement. Which, obviously, yes, since I'd have to believe they made it to be able to believe it wasn't accurate


Once they got to that point, their solution for it was to tell folks if they bought FSD and it turned out they needed any HW upgrades to use it, Tesla would upgrade them at no charge.

Which is why I bought FSD. And why I got HW3 at no charge.

I expect to get HW4 that way too if it's needed.... (or, a refund with interest I suppose if there's genuinely not any ability to do that)

 

[Knightshade]

So just for kicks, I went to my Tesla account and hit the upgrade button and then subscriptions available and there was the monthly FSD subscription. I hit it and as expected, it told me that I needed a HW upgrade.... but it wasn't for $1,500, it was only for $1,000:

View attachment 687872

Yeah- they lowered the price days ago- was already discussed at some length earlier in this thread and elsewhere.

 

[verygreen]

I do not believe it would work for someone with no root access to the system-- though possibly @verygreen could confirm.

don't need root access to switch AP computer and the procedure is relatively easy. But that of course does not transfer the purchased autopilot level from one vin to another - that part is tied to the vin.

 

[BM3B]

I don't understand. What hasn't been covered about the FSD subscription? What is your question?

How it’s performing, easy to turn on and off, how long to install, etc

 

[raptor5244]

Tesla privately admits Elon Musk has been exaggerating about ‘full self-driving’

Musk’s comments do not match the “engineering reality.”

www.theverge.com

 

[raptor5244]

Tesla's Full Self Driving System Mistakes the Moon(!) for Yellow Traffic Light

 

[raptor5244]

Let me know when it gets down to $19.99 per month and then I will subscribe to SAD - Some Assisted Driving.