EVNow
Well-Known Member
It got delayed because of unforeseen circumstances. You will get it as soon as it is available.
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MASTER THREAD: FSD Subscription Available 16 Jul 2021
- Thread starter Adirondack_D
- Start date
What were those "unforeseen circumstances?" The fact that Tesla hadn't developed it yet and it took WAY longer than they expected, and that delay continues into 2022, literally 4X+ as long as they originally promised? Yeah, that's called investing in a company, not buying a product. You know what other companies do when they give you a delivery date and can't meet it by YEARS? A refund.
Why will you get it as soon as it is available? Tesla has not sold it to anyone and doesn't owe them anything. According to defenders of Tesla's sales practices, they have never promised anyone FSD- only city streets autosteer. Why are you sure Tesla will give people something they never promised them?
This whole discussion started when someone asked if they can "buy" "FSD" and get the "FSD beta." I said there was no way to make Tesla do that, and all of you appear to be in strong agreement, and agree that the timeframe for that could be "forever".
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
They promised a FUTURE feature. They listed what you got AT purchase.
Now, if you want to say for buyers (NOT renters) those folks are owed something if they bought FSD in 2019 and 2020 and didn't get the last "coming this year" feature promised that year you'll get no argument from me.
It's the only actual reasonable basis for legal action anybody has cited here ever- and I've said so for years.
But even that isn't talking about an unfinished test product not in wide release.
And also untrue.
The unfinished product isn't "between the lines"
It's not mentioned AT ALL.
It's not a product Tesla has for sale
At all.
They do sell a product that will eventually include the FINISHED feature. That item does not yet exist, and Tesla TELLS YOU THAT during purchase.
FSD is the product NAME, not description.
City streets autosteer is the only "owed" feature to current buyers. That's specifically in writing when you buy it.
Likewise, Happy Meals aren't guaranteed to improve your mood.
Diaper Genies don't grant wishes.
Radio flyers neither receive radio NOR fly.
You are confusing a product name with a detailed description of what it does.
And not for the first time either, which suggests you're not doing it very honestly.
EVNow
Well-Known Member
This is cutting edge technology that no one has developed yet. It is taking longer than anticipated.
Noother company has this technology. We are still pouring billions developing this technology - not trying to run away with your money.
Anyway - this is all OT. Since there are a million other threads you can whine in - no reason to use the Beta 11 thread. Pls continue the stale old discussion in other threads.
This is a really interesting line of thought.
"Full Self Driving Capability" is the name of a product. It means nothing.
The "detailed" description of this just says "city streets autosteer" as the only described thing not being shipped yet.
What is the exact future feature set you are buying with FSD today? Where is the detailed list of what "city streets autosteer" is?
It appears that we all agree that if you buy FSD today, all Tesla owes you is allowing autosteer (not even navigate on autopilot) on city streets. That's a very low bar, far away from what most people would think they would get by buying FSD for $12,000. But it's all they "promised" in the "detailed description", right?
Why is everyone so sure that if you buy FSD today for $12K that Tesla will ever owe or give you more than a small upgrade of allowing autosteer use on city streets, and what is autosteer anyway? None of the needed details to understand what you are actually going to get are in writing anywhere, and as you say, "FSD" is NOT A PRODUCT TESLA HAS FOR SALE, so you are not buying it when you pay $12K for something...
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
Well, no more than a happy meal "means" something or any other product name that isn't, inherently, a complete and detailed description of the product itself.
I dunno what's "interesting" about it, it's true of TONS of products on the market.
You just described it. How are you still confused?
Yup.
For current/recent buyers anyway.
Folks who bought before ~March 2019 were promised quite a bit more, which is why you can make a pretty good argument for there being two different versions of the FSD "product", the one described/sold prior to 3/19, and the one after.
For me, it's because I'm a pre-3/19 buyer.
You're again confusing 2 different ideas though (and these are ideas already explained to you many times- so it's again hard to take your argument as serious or remotely an honest attempt to discuss this).
There's what Tesla legally owes to whom-- which primarily matters most if Tesla is unable to deliver it.
This bit is relevant because if, for example, Tesla is able to deliver an L2 version of city streets.... all post 3/19 buyers are "whole", legally. They're "owed" nothing further, legally. Pre 3/19 buyers are.... and if Tesla announced they will be unable to deliver more than that, the pre-3/19 buyers are owed compensation, and the post 3/19 buyers are not.
Then there's what Tesla will actually deliver (beyond the minimum promised) and to whom IF they're able to successfully get all the way to what they promised the pre 3/19 buyers (which is at minimum an L4 system with a reasonably wide ODD).
If they can do that, they don't technically "owe" that to the post 3/19 buyers-- but it's extremely likely bordering on certain they will deliver it to them anyway.
Apart from the PR benefit, there's a number of practical benefits for Tesla as a company doing this (and we've been over them repeatedly in case you were about to pretend you forgot them again).... and the current worldwide take rate has been low enough that doing so makes far far more sense than not.
I didn't say that though.
If you could stop making up things nobody said that'd be great.
What I actually said was the unfinished narrow-release FSDBeta is not a product tesla has for sale. Because it's not.
It's an early, not finished, not in general release, testing version of what they hope eventually becomes the DELIVERED wide release product they DO owe to customers.
If I pre-order the next Game of Thrones book, I'm not "owed" access to the in-progress chapters that aren't finished yet. Even if the author decides to share them with some limited # of folks and not others. I'm only owed a finished copy once it's done and in wide release.
"FSD" is absolutely a product they have for sale. And you get all the specific current listed features IMMEDIATELY on purchase, and are owed the one "coming later" one they list as well-- the city streets one. The public wide release one, not an early unfinished test version that isn't even mentioned on the sales page.
Autosteer on City Streets is not defined on Tesla's product page. All the other features are defined. I find that extremely telling.
The other features are either highway based, or stopping for signals (but not starting again), or the parking features. Taken at face-value they in no way promise anything, except you might take their definition of Autosteer to mean this.
- Autosteer [on City Streets]: Assists in steering within a clearly marked lane, and uses traffic-aware cruise control
I really doubt anyone plunking down $10k+ since 2019 agrees that the endgame could be "exactly what your car does today on the highway, plus it will keep you in the lane lines around town, but in no way will it navigate while off the highway, make turns, react to pedestrians, or accelerate from a stop". Officially you can't use NoA off the highway now, if it became geofenced you'd lose even that.
But by promising nothing more than a lane line nanny they can deliver nothing more. Is that really what you're saying?
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Read @Knightshade above- he and I agree for anyone that buys FSD post 3/2019.
Tesla advertises nothing besides CSA when you buy "Full Self Driving Capability". They owe you nothing more. So why would Tesla give you more for free?
This is what happens when the way you defend Tesla is to look at precise words and contracts they use. As many people say, their advertising, Tweets by the CEO, statements by others in Tesla, or videos you see on Youtube have nothing to do with what your $12K gets you. Threads on FSD are covered in people explaining how just because you assumed you would get something doesn't mean you will. And anyone today is ASSUMING they will get FSD just because they spent $12K is as dumb as anyone that paid for it in 2016 thinking they would get it in 2017 just because Elon said so many times.
Read the checkout page. City streets autosteer, coming soon since 2019. You are not buying into Tesla's future vision of L3+ FSD. Just L2 CSA. Anyone that believes otherwise is an idiot, like the person that asked if they Subscribe to FULL SELF DRIVING CAPABILITY will they be able to get the FULL SELF DRIVING LIMITED RELEASE? Ha, no, you dummy, why would you think that?
I get that, do they? I didn't buy it, and I suppose I'm just stirring the pot a little here, but your/our cynical viewpoint is not the general viewpoint. What if it were? That's in the "This is a really interesting line of thought" that you alluded to earlier. Oh well, it's not like Tesla is going to say it now, it just gives them an out from delivering more, assuming they ever actually release anything.
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
I guess I don't get what is "interesting" about a pretty obvious fact we've known for years?
Why else would Tesla change from a quite broad, read as minimum-level-4, product they were selling until 3/19 to instead a fairly specific list of features explicitly stated as only L2 when sold?
The most obvious reason is to limit their legal liability in case it turns out they can't deliver more than L2. If that turns out to be true, they only owe compensation of some kind (TBD) to the pre-3/19 buyers.
It was obvious then (and widely discussed) and yet some folks who were around even then keep acting like it's some AMAZING AND SURPRISING NEWS THEY JUST DISCOVERED.
It's not. And wasn't the last 10 times you acted shocked to find it out either for no apparent reason.
Likewise, if they ARE able to deliver L4 on anything resembling existing (or easily swapped) HW, there's every reason to expect both pre and post 3/19 buyers will get it (and that, too, has been covered exhaustively in multiple threads, going back almost 3 years now since the 3/19 changeover).
So the change is primarily just a CYA in case they can't do it.
How or why any of this in a beta thread, especially primarily driven by someone who has been here years and already knew all this, is left as an exercise for the reader.
If not interesting, it at least bears repeating until people understand. Paying for Full Self-Driving Capability, possibly getting to test FSD Beta in no way means you will get a car that drives itself, ever. FSD Beta may not ever be released, you might just get city line-following nanny.
Many many articles and social media posts believe that you WILL get a car that drives itself eventually, for that money. You may have seen through the marketing, but I'll bet many do not, and should really be informed. That's partly why the repetition of these posts is happening.
Full Self-Driving Capability
$10,600 (in Canada, which BTW is $8300 USD) or $12,000 (USA)- Navigate on Autopilot
- Auto Lane Change
- Autopark
- Summon
- Full Self-Driving Computer
- Traffic Light and Stop Sign Control
Coming Soon
- Autosteer on city streets
The currently enabled features require active driver supervision and do not make the vehicle autonomous. The activation and use of these features are dependent on achieving reliability far in excess of human drivers as demonstrated by billions of miles of experience, as well as regulatory approval, which may take longer in some jurisdictions. As these self-driving features evolve, your car will be continuously upgraded through over-the-air software updates.
EVNow
Well-Known Member
OT. Pls take the OT conversation away - you are spamming people who subscribe to this thread.
Let me just thank all the followers of this thread that are not currently taking this strategy. Dan is not the only guilty party.
Kimmi
Member
I would be happy if I could pay to add auto lane change to my existing AP. 
TBrownTX
Active Member
I would be happy if I could pay to add auto lane change to my existing AP.
Me too, and the chime on green light feature. Wouldn't it be great if you could buy these things a-la-carte? I have no desire to light up any of the other features.
Tim
GargantulaKon
FSD Beta Chill Member
boonedocks
MS LR Blk/Blk 19”
me too.....however the problem for Tesla is that unless auto lane change was $11,800 they would not sell another FSD option again. The definition of Tesla's FSD and L5(L4 for that matter) are not the same. Autosteer on city streets without having to hold the steering wheel and constant monitoring will not be here any time soon. Probably most current owners will be on their next...if not next next Tesla before it is.I would be happy if I could pay to add auto lane change to my existing AP.
Feel free to visit this post in two years and see where we actually are vs "aspirationally" will be.
And to note, even if Tesla does get to L3+ Autosteer on city streets, just because you bought $12K "Full Self Driving Capability" doesn't mean you will get that capability without paying more. Tesla can go and call L2 "Autosteer" and L3 "LudacrisSteer" and charge again for LudacrisSteer.
So in a sense, they are already close to charging $11,800 for auto lane change because you aren't promised a lot more than that in the future.
Good catch
Pretty concerning that it wasn't updated until the 11th hour, as if they had no idea it wouldn't be delivered earlier in the year. With this moving target and constant changes/tweaks, it feels like history is being revised on the fly and people understandably just forget about what happened a few weeks or months ago.
A person could draft a dissertation just on all the changes to verbiage and such since 2016
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