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Model 3 SR+ LFP Battery Range, Degradation, etc Discussion
- Thread starter Baluchi
- Start date
I have exact same range 433km now but only after 2600km. Lol. 2022 Model 3 RWD. its been about 3 months too10k update:
M3 RWD with LFP batteries
10,000 kms in 3+months.
Range dropped from 438kms to 433kms. My understanding is first 2km loss due to calibration, droped within first few weeks. So the real loss is 3 kms. Zero supersharging . Daily level 2 home charging to 100%.
So far so good
Help. We have ordered a 2022 SR RWD but just changed to LR since I’m concerned we will never get near the 272 (rwd) or 358 (lr) numbers. I have some real concerns on which vehicle to order. I can still change so any feedback on my ‘stream of consciousness concerns’ are appreciated.
LFP:
If I leave the car plugged in all the time am I likely to see 272 miles range? If not what range are you folks experiencing? (I’d prefer to plug and forget in our garage). How far can I go on a full charge (I know lots of variables but…)
If supercharging enroute can I refill to 272, or whatever 100% is?
Is it quicker to charge an lfp to 100% than an LR to 80%?
My concerns started when I tried to plan a trip on Tesla’s planner and I couldn’t go from Chandler Az to Quartzite AZ (<190 miles) without stopping in Buckeye! I also couldn’t go from Chandler to Flagstaff (165 miles) without a stop. If true this renders the charge estimates of 272 miles useless and the car just doesn’t have the range we want. Of note the LR with 358 miles of advertised range could do both, this caused me to change the lfp order to lr.
LR:
What is the max range I’m likely to see? clearly from the threads it looks like a lot less than 358 Miles
If I charge to 80% how much additional time does it take to get to the remaining 100% while on the road? In other words is LR an actual advantage Or do I really only get 80% of 358 vs 100% of 272?
our profile is town or long trips, no midrange use. Is LR worth it?
we want max range available but in a usable non fussy way if possible
thanks
LFP:
If I leave the car plugged in all the time am I likely to see 272 miles range? If not what range are you folks experiencing? (I’d prefer to plug and forget in our garage). How far can I go on a full charge (I know lots of variables but…)
If supercharging enroute can I refill to 272, or whatever 100% is?
Is it quicker to charge an lfp to 100% than an LR to 80%?
My concerns started when I tried to plan a trip on Tesla’s planner and I couldn’t go from Chandler Az to Quartzite AZ (<190 miles) without stopping in Buckeye! I also couldn’t go from Chandler to Flagstaff (165 miles) without a stop. If true this renders the charge estimates of 272 miles useless and the car just doesn’t have the range we want. Of note the LR with 358 miles of advertised range could do both, this caused me to change the lfp order to lr.
LR:
What is the max range I’m likely to see? clearly from the threads it looks like a lot less than 358 Miles
If I charge to 80% how much additional time does it take to get to the remaining 100% while on the road? In other words is LR an actual advantage Or do I really only get 80% of 358 vs 100% of 272?
our profile is town or long trips, no midrange use. Is LR worth it?
we want max range available but in a usable non fussy way if possible
thanks
I'm not sure what settings you're using in the trip planner, but you can absolutely go from Chandler to Quartzsite without having to charge along the way. In warm weather with mixed driving, I routinely get the EPA range or even better from my LFP RWD.
I can't know which car is better for you, but I did recently do a 3000 mile road trip in my SR+ and it was a totally pleasant experience.
Your mileage may vary.
If you have previously driven an EV, you can use your actual economy versus EPA rated economy as a reasonable guess as to how you will do against the EPA rated economy of a new EV. However, one point of variation is that EVs with resistance heating tend to lose economy and range more when using the heater than EVs with heat pump heating (as new Model 3 has).
If you have only driven ICEVs before, then the above still somewhat applies, but there are more points of variation. ICEVs are typically inefficient in stop-and-go driving because they lose / waste energy in braking, while EVs can recapture some of that energy. But highway economy relative to EPA rated should be somewhat of a predictor. Note that highway speed is a big factor in highway economy.
AlanSubie4Life
Efficiency Obsessed Member
I assume you mean at a Supercharger. I'm not 100% sure (only because of the taper differences) but I'd expect the LR to get to 80% faster. In theory they should both charge to 100% in the same amount of time (the charge rate scaling proportionately) but there are subtleties that might make that not the case.
Yes, it'll take a long time and you'll typically never want to do that. Taper is better on LFP I guess but it's still a drag.
Too many variables.
I'd recommend you get away from thinking about the miles and think about battery capacity and expected efficiency.
LFP RWD is about 60kWh including buffer. You can use 95.5% of this. 57.3kWh
LR AWD is about 79kWh including buffer. You can use 95.5% of this.
I'd expect 300Wh/mi on that run from Chandler to Quartzite at 80mph or so (but I'm biased because I'm used to AWD numbers which are worse). You should check with other RWD owners on what they get at 80-85mph; it is pretty efficient relative to the LR (I haven't seen good recent data). But on that run you can go 85mph so you may end up substantially higher than that 300Wh/mi number (80mph->85mph will add about 30Wh/mi).
Anyway 190miles at 300Wh/mi is 57kWh which definitely is a bit marginal (arriving at about 0%). Again, with drafting, or better efficiency because the RWD really is a lot better at 80mph than I am quoting here, you might really have no issue.
But that would still be fairly tight - seems clear you might arrive with 5% left if you managed 285Wh/mi.
I don't think in general you should expect to get anywhere near the rated mileage from either vehicle if you're doing a consistent 80-85mph on the freeway (typical use case for Arizona long-distance travel).
Note these capacities are prior to any capacity loss. The LFP will likely do better than the LR AWD in that regard.
I'd avoid using the Telsa trip planner on the website. It isn't as accurate as the car itself or A Better Route Planner.
Using ABRP and the rated RWD range at 65 mph (it scales up based on speed), it would make that trip with 13% with a max speed of 85 mph.
Speed really really kills range. Running that trip with my RWD would get me there with 20% left if I go 110% of the speed limit capped at 80mph, but closer to 12% left if I go 85.
I would suggest playing with A Better Route Planner. It tends to be more robust than the Tesla website and closer to the cars built in trip planner as well. You can adjust all sorts of things like speed, temperature, etc.
When I was making the choice between long range and standard range, I ran a few trips I would take through that tool. Based on my routes, the long range would save me 10 min on a 11 hour drive. So it wasn’t worth the cost for me based on my usage.
AlanSubie4Life
Efficiency Obsessed Member
This 190 miles number confused me (it's 152 miles Chandler to Quartzsite!). Obviously you can make 152 miles in the RWD!
Yep, plugging in the advanced options, setting degradation to 0%, etc., you get there at 18% in an RWD at an average speed of 79mph (has it going 86mph on the open interstate, 75mph around the city).
Note that the average consumption ABRP finds at that speed is 303Wh/mi (LR AWD gets 317Wh/mi (actually 329Wh/mi accounting for weird discrepancy mentioned below) arriving at 37%), close to the estimate above (may be slightly conservative, I am not sure for RWD).
18% means using 82% of the 0.955*60kWh, 47kWh, over 152 miles, or 309Wh/mi, so looks like ABRP is actually being slightly conservative and using ~59kWh for total battery capacity. (EDIT: actually it's just inconsistent. It says 47.8kWh over 152mi (314Wh/mi) and then claims that is 303Wh/mi. Hmm. Anyway it also implies 47.8kWh is 82% of 0.955*BatterySize which means BatterySize is 61kWh so they're not being conservative. I have no idea why they're inconsistent in their calculations, but whatever, it's within 4%...kind of a largish discrepancy...)
ABRP
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In any case either vehicle will have no problem with this 152-mile trip, except perhaps late in its life when it has lost 15-20% of its capacity. If it's a 190-mile trip from wherever @Rainstorm is and he doesn't want to stop, might want to consider the LR AWD for margin.
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Note: ABRP defaults to 247 wh/mi @65mph for the 2022 Model 3 RWD. With my personal 2022 Model 3 RWD I have measured 232 wi/mi at 70mph and 60 deg F. Maybe I have a fluke car, but I doubt it. I do run my tires at max psi though, so perhaps ABRP assumes you are at 35psi or something like that.
AlanSubie4Life
Efficiency Obsessed Member
So assuming about 132Wh/mi of that is aero and most of the remaining 100Wh/mi is rolling resistance (probably not that bad an estimate), that works out to about 295Wh/mi at 85mph (most of ABRP route). So a bit lower than their estimates.
I wouldn’t be surprised if their model is a bit conservative - I’ve usually done slightly better than their estimates, but I’m not sure how they come up with their models.
Same here. I recently got 211 at 65 over a 20 mile highway test I did. Temp was in the upper 70s too. Heck, I got 240 wh/mile going 65 around 38 degrees after I had super charged. ABRP is definitely conservative
AlanSubie4Life
Efficiency Obsessed Member
That 211Wh/mi might be slightly too good to be true...if it's not perfectly flat (or you do a round trip - did you?) it's tough to be sure, especially with tailwinds, etc. 225Wh/mi seems more like what could be expected.
The best efficiencies are often achieved in the hottest temperatures at speed since the air is a bit thinner (particularly in the evening when the sun loading of the AC is reduced).
I think the rang drop is not based on mileages. I have the same car M3 RWD with LFP 3000km in 3 months. The range dropped from 439km to 434 km.10k update:
M3 RWD with LFP batteries
10,000 kms in 3+months.
Range dropped from 438kms to 433kms. My understanding is first 2km loss due to calibration, droped within first few weeks. So the real loss is 3 kms. Zero supersharging . Daily level 2 home charging to 100%.
So far so good
That's seems bit weired tbh. But I won't complain lol.. I guess it's still early to make any battery comparison..
My first post, another data point, M3 RWD 2022 is close to 5K miles, the range shows 269 miles (from 272)
So, just got back from our trip to Cancun, Mexico. 6 days we were there.
No scientefic data but wanted to share my SOC and how much i lost. Car was inside garage. Left at 69% soc and just checked i only lost 1% in 6 days . Now sitting at 68% . Car was not plugged in. I checked the app i think 4 or 5 times total during the trip.
. Sentry mode was off since its a locked garage. Also mind you weather was in mid 20s celc. Here in Toronto as far i know for the Week which was perfect for the battery i think.
Hope this helps.
No scientefic data but wanted to share my SOC and how much i lost. Car was inside garage. Left at 69% soc and just checked i only lost 1% in 6 days . Now sitting at 68% . Car was not plugged in. I checked the app i think 4 or 5 times total during the trip.
. Sentry mode was off since its a locked garage. Also mind you weather was in mid 20s celc. Here in Toronto as far i know for the Week which was perfect for the battery i think.
Hope this helps.
I've also have one with a 269 mile rated range at 5k miles. A 3 mile drop is really good. My 2020 MY dropped 15 miles in the first 5k miles. (Keeping in mind that the reported range isn't a great metric of true battery capacity.)
xallenx1
2021 LFP SR+ with the 980 motor and rear sway bar
thebestiam1
Member
Is it true that you shouldn't charge the car to 100% if you aren't going to drive it the next day?
On a LFP more or less important. If it was the case, Tesla user manual would of mention it.
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