Discussion: Tesla Vision system for Model 3/Y

[MentalNomad]

Currently, all documented fatal Autopilot accidents are frontal crashes and not from the cars behind them.

Who is documenting fatal crashes that are not autopilot crashes? Because that's what's being talked about here.

I'm wondering why they changed to Vision. How is that going to work in fog or heavy rain? I don't see how it can if it is relying only on optics.

It wouldn't work on heavy fog with the RADAR, either. It can't drive on RADAR alone. It can only autopilot where it can do so on vision... RADAR use merely an assist for certain situations.

So, if you ditch the RADAR, the situations where can drive are the same as now.

 

[FastEddieC]

Just to be clear - the features are there today in new cars being delivered (as shown by several people on Twitter who got the new cars - and except for lane departure alert), but the NHTSA ratings are removed. Its hard based on your post to see if that’s clear or not. The features themselves are not “coming soon”, but the ratings are. Two separate things.

That said…I agree with you. If I was ordering a new Tesla Model 3 I would wait until they give back all the features at the same level as radar-included vehicles.

Exactly my thinking. I will wait To order.

 

[MentalNomad]

Am I the only person looking forward to losing the downsides of the RADAR?

I'm 99% sure that when the car lurches down to half speed on the highway due to an upcoming overheard traffic sign on an overpass that it's due to RADAR data conflicting with the visual systems (which continue to see open road ahead.) It'll be nice when my RADAR is turned off an this stops happening.

The car is very likely receiving a constant stream of unreliable RADAR data (because most RADAR data is notoriously unreliable) and has to spend a lot of processing power determining that it's noise. Tesla very likely has tons of data showing how often the cars needs to override RADAR input (nearly all them time), vs how often RADAR provides valuable input unavailable from the video streams (nearly never.) As the vision gets better, this ratio moves towards "RADAR is pointless waste" and it makes sense to delete it.

It's better than just removing the dead weight of the unit and power draw... it lessens the processor's load, which adds up to more driveable miles of electricity not spend overriding RADAR glitches. Don't forget that FSD sucks down about 250 watts per mile. That's a much larger fraction of your power consumption than most people realize, so reducing the load spent to disregard RADAR noise can actually add up enough to be significant. (Of course, if that processing power consumed by more activity on the Vision, side, then there's no net gain, and RADAR is simply holding back Vision's ability to do its job.)

 

[MaxHG]

Just to be clear - the features are there today in new cars being delivered (as shown by several people on Twitter who got the new cars - and except for lane departure alert), but the NHTSA ratings are removed. Its hard based on your post to see if that’s clear or not. The features themselves are not “coming soon”, but the ratings are. Two separate things.

That said…I agree with you. If I was ordering a new Tesla Model 3 I would wait until they give back all the features at the same level as radar-included vehicles.

According to my SA yesterday quote
”Two features are disabled.
Automatic auto emergency breaking and lane departure warning”.
Two features that are non negotiable for me driving 130 miles a day (120 of which are highway) 6 days a week
He also mentioned that the radar was the root cause of the phantom breaking. I don’t know much about that but did experience it once in the city where the car just came to a stop for no reason.
I don’t want to wait but I also don’t want to be stuck in a loop waiting for active safety features to be “activated.”

 

[mjwh]

According to my SA yesterday quote
”Two features are disabled.
Automatic auto emergency breaking and lane departure warning”.
Two features that are non negotiable for me driving 130 miles a day (120 of which are highway) 6 days a week
He also mentioned that the radar was the root cause of the phantom breaking. I don’t know much about that but did experience it once in the city where the car just came to a stop for no reason.
I don’t want to wait but I also don’t want to be stuck in a loop waiting for active safety features to be “activated.”

The official Tesla published information disagrees with this.

The official release says there are three impacts:

• Auto steer limited to 75mph
• Smart summon disabled
• Emergency Lane Departure Avoidance — NOT lane departure warning

This has also been confirmed by owners of Tesla vision enabled cars with videos posted to YouTube

 

[MaxHG]

The official Tesla published information disagrees with this.

The official release says there are three impacts:

• Auto steer limited to 75mph
• Smart summon disabled
• Emergency Lane Departure Avoidance — NOT lane departure warning

This has also been confirmed by owners of Tesla vision enabled cars with videos posted to YouTube

I meant to write lane departure avoidance, my error on the term.
The SA had to get verification and get back to me, that’s what he came back with. I have not tested either feature nor taken delivery to verify. How would one check or test if Automatic emergency breaking is disabled? Auto steer and smart summons I didn’t mention as they aren’t active safety features but enhance features. My personal concerns are with the active safety side of features.
He did mention that it should hopefully all be sorted out by the time my Y is due which was hopefully by end of June. I didn’t put my order on hold… he said I can always pass up on the car and go back into the Q if not resolved by then. I’m going to wait and see hopefully they get reactivated and tested by then.

 

[mjwh]

I meant to write lane departure avoidance, my error on the term.
The SA had to get verification and get back to me, that’s what he came back with. I have not tested either feature nor taken delivery to verify. How would one check or test if Automatic emergency breaking is disabled? Auto steer and smart summons I didn’t mention as they aren’t active safety features but enhance features. My personal concerns are with the active safety side of features.
He did mention that it should hopefully all be sorted out by the time my Y is due which was hopefully by end of June. I didn’t put my order on hold… he said I can always pass up on the car and go back into the Q if not resolved by then. I’m going to wait and see hopefully they get reactivated and tested by then.

I mean I can’t prove a negative for you, and I don’t think anyone is going to go out and intentionally trigger an automatic emergency braking situation… the fact of the matter is the official Tesla documentation specifically lists which features are impacted and that wasn’t one of them.

 

[SkuleBus]

Does this mean insurance cost will increase?

Yes for me in Toronto, Canada. My new M3 that I'm picking this coming Friday will no longer qualify for the automatic car response system discount. Quite a bummer

 

[Tam]

It wouldn't work on heavy fog with the RADAR, either. It can't drive on RADAR alone. It can only autopilot where it can do so on vision... RADAR use merely an assist for certain situations.

So, if you ditch the RADAR, the situations where can drive are the same as now.

RADAR seems to have some advantages as a radar Tesla can follow the lead car in front even when there are no visible lane lines.

It is questionable that ditching radar is the same now because most likely, the smart summon uses radar that can detect moving obstacles very well so ditching radar now means temporarily make the smart summon inactive until the camera can catch up with the radar's capability.

The same with reduced speed of Autopilot to 75 MPH instead of present 90 MPH: Radar is very good at detecting speed. The camera can too but it might be more complex to figure out and might take more time than the single-purpose doppler speed detection radar.

And that also explains why the safety distance must be longer as opposed to the current shorter settings for radar cars.

Ditching is fine, but it should be tested out, verified by third parties before claiming that ditching is good.

 

[MaxHG]

Yes for me in Toronto, Canada. My new M3 that I'm picking this coming Friday will no longer qualify for the automatic car response system discount. Quite a bummer

Yes this is a bummer. I was advised similar by my insurance carrier here in the US This past Friday 28th. Wasn’t given dollar amounts difference plus advised to wait till the time to bind coverage comes but warned that premium will increase.
Let’s hope that these features get restored along with the readings quickly.

 

[schlacterdream]

I recently reviewed facebook’s research paper on pure vision and detection based on pure vision. I am not worried about losing radar, in fact amazed at pure vision will have over other car manufacturers who have decided not to. Anyways, let’s see how my car works as I just picked up yesterday! Autopilot in itself with auto steer worked so well and it was so comfortable I was amazed but I didn’t require to go higher than 75 mph on highways where I live.

 

[ZilWin]

The official Tesla published information disagrees with this.

The official release says there are three impacts:

• Auto steer limited to 75mph
• Smart summon disabled
• Emergency Lane Departure Avoidance — NOT lane departure warning

This has also been confirmed by owners of Tesla vision enabled cars with videos posted to YouTube

I am a bit confused as to what the radar would have to do with Lane Departure Avoidance. My previous vehicle had that feature and it was strictly camera based AFAIK. Tesla Vision should be able to handle that without radar input. I will be taking delivery of my M3 AWD LR this week. I do find it a bit odd that all my final 'paperwork' on the Tesla site is giving my the option to drop the FSD option at this late date. I suspect it is to give folks who might be reacting negatively to the changes to opt out without penalty and still accept the car. I will not be one of those because I suspect that is why I got my car so quickly.
I may be naive as i am new to Tesla, but I have confidence at the previous functionality will be restroed and then some as they refine the software around Tesla Vision.

 

[Dogs_In_A_Pile]

Initial reports from 3 & Y owners is not encouraging in rainy conditions. Plus, the use of the wonky auto headlight feature is now mandatory to engage AP or TACC. On a side note, it also appears they have removed the adjustable lumbar support from the passenger seat, at least on the Y.

 

[Kenfucius]

On a side note, it also appears they have removed the adjustable lumbar support from the passenger seat, at least on the Y.

And updated the site to reflect from "12 way adjustable seats" to "adjustable seats". Cool cool...

 

[deevee8]

What happens if I don't accept the Tesla Vision notice on my order? Do I get my $100 back vs cancelling where they keep it?

 

[epj3]

Tesla is lucky that it's able to deliver vehicles when competitors can't. In normal times, we would have cancelled our reservation by now but unfortunately need a car.

 

[MaxHG]

Does this mean insurance cost will increase?

Yes for me in Toronto, Canada. My new M3 that I'm picking this coming Friday will no longer qualify for the automatic car response system discount. Quite a bummer

Important note on possible increased insurance premiums.
Auto insurance, at least in the US, while they are a one year quotes/agreements, they are monthly in terms of contractual obligations for both parties. This means that for those who will be binding policies without the discounts related to active safety features while this “Vision“ change gets sorted, assuming it does and gets reinstated/recognized as included or standard equipment by the various powers-that -be, you can and should request that your policy is related. The carriers will not reach out to you to offer the discounts, it is up to the insured to be proactive about obtaining them once eligible.

 

[Platini]

True, at this point many factors point towards waiting.

Maybe not. I just found out that the latest model Ys no longer have the passenger seat lumbar support control. If you're way too long you may no longer get a steering wheel lol

 

[rjpjnk]

Now that Tesla has solved their parts problem by eliminating the radar it seems everyone is getting notice of delivery. I just got an email saying tentative pick up day for my MY is June 5, but I don’t even have a vin yet, or insurance, or funding lined up. I could rush this in time but now that the car has changed so much I would rather wait a month or so to see how they are performing. How do I go about delaying my delivery? I don’t have any SA that I’m aware of.

 

[SkuleBus]

Important note on possible increased insurance premiums.
Auto insurance, at least in the US, while they are a one year quotes/agreements, they are monthly in terms of contractual obligations for both parties. This means that for those who will be binding policies without the discounts related to active safety features while this “Vision“ change gets sorted, assuming it does and gets reinstated/recognized as included or standard equipment by the various powers-that -be, you can and should request that your policy is related. The carriers will not reach out to you to offer the discounts, it is up to the insured to be proactive about obtaining them once eligible.

That’s a good point. I definitely will be closely monitoring the ratings