Discussion: Tesla Vision system for Model 3/Y

[MP3Mike]

I never really got into the "politics" of Tesla so I'm asking this question sincerely (because I don't know the answer). I know Elon Musk has always been against lidar but how long has he been against radar? When did he take the stance that vision-only is a better way to go? I wasn't really paying attention to it but I haven't heard about him being "anti radar" until it was convenient for him to take that stance: when Tesla had 10,000+ cars waiting for radar units they couldn't get. So is his new-to-me anti-radar vision-only stance just a PR stunt based on convenience? Or has he been talking about getting rid of radar for a while?

As far back as 2018 he said it would be purely vision based, with radar as a plus:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1057949223445020672

And it would seem that since then they decided that radar wasn't a plus. There are more recent examples of him saying they were going pure vision, so it isn't like this was a last second direction change.

 

[id436eg9045]

So is his new-to-me anti-radar vision-only stance just a PR stunt based on convenience? Or has he been talking about getting rid of radar for a while?

Mike

Switching to Vision-only has been on their roadmap for a while and Musk has discussed it on Twitter many times. However, the timing of the switch certainly seems motivated by the radar part shortage more than Tesla thinking the software was ready for the change.

 

[MentalNomad]

Now I find out all within a week that they've stripped out the radar (immediately costing them their safety ratings and hiking insurance rates), stripped the passenger adjustable lumbar support, removed the emergency lane departure feature, and nerfed the top speed of autosteer.

It seems the safety ratings simply have to be re-validated on the new vision-based system, is all.

They may need more validation miles in vision-only mode before they hit their metric for raising the top speed again - or maybe they've decided to lower the top speed universally in some countries/states... time will tell.

Can anyone clarify if the newly delivered 3s also force you to activate the driver nannycam (and leave it uncovered) in order to use autosteer?

You seem to have forgotten (or didn't know?) that the biggest ding to Tesla's safety rating for autosteer in the past was the fact that it didn't have sufficient driver awareness... because of which it didn't get the top marks for autosteer safety. Cars that better track driver inattentiveness won out, which leads to better safety ratings (which lead to lower insurance rates...)

I know Elon Musk has always been against lidar but how long has he been against radar?

As far as I can recall, he has always taken the stance that the solution that works will eventually be all-vision. RADAR was a safety add-on during earlier phases.

I'm sure the devs were asked "can you get Tesla Vision to work as well as radar within X days?" and the answer came back "Maybe".

I don't think this was the case. I think they just look at the current dataset and asked the questions:
1. How often does RADAR give the exact same warning as the vision system?
2. When they disagree, how often is RADAR right and vision wrong?
3. When they disagree, how often is vision right and RADAR wrong?

If reality is mostly 1 and 3 and just a tiny bit of two, then it makes sense to turn off the RADAR, and avoid all those problem from 3. Then focus on improving vision's ability in those weak corner cases where RADAR actually worked better.

 

[Dogs_In_A_Pile]

I'm assuming with the removal of radar other features such as Forward Collision Warning, Automatic Emergency Breaking, etc, will also be purely vision based. Therefore, this means to take advantage of these safety features at night then Auto High Beam would also be required to be enabled? Has anyone seen any confirmation of this?

I could possibly see myself accepting just not using AP at night if Auto High Beam is not corrected, but I would not want to lose those safety features too.

Yes. I've read the new firmware requires auto headlights when using AP or TACC. If it is not enabled neither will engage. This was the straw that broke the camel's back for me. The vision only system by itself really didn't bother me since I tend to rely on me rather than systems to drive the car and I didn't really care about the passenger lumbar support. But, living outside of a smaller town in a very dark area, headlights, especially high beams and the ability to control them, are essential for me. From what I've this auto headlight requirement is causing a lot of problems for some people.

The Tesla went from the best car to drive a long distance on the freeway to a worse experience than my old Honda since at least that could use cruise control.

(moderator note: removed link to the exact same information you posted in this very thread already. instead, I will link back to the post in this thread where you posted the same information)

Discussion: Tesla Vision system for Model 3/Y

Maybe not. I just found out that the latest model Ys no longer have the passenger seat lumbar support control. If you're way too long you may no longer get a steering wheel lol Literally... Tesla is looking at eliminating the steering wheel.

teslamotorsclub.com

 

[twc]

Yes. I've read the new firmware requires auto headlights when using AP or TACC. If it is not enabled neither will engage. This was the straw that broke the camel's back for me. The vision only system by itself really didn't bother me since I tend to rely on me rather than systems to drive the car and I didn't really care about the passenger lumbar support. But, living outside of a smaller town in a very dark area, headlights, especially high beams and the ability to control them, are essential for me. From what I've this auto headlight requirement is causing a lot of problems for some people.



(moderator note: removed link to the exact same information you posted in this very thread already. instead, I will link back to the post in this thread where you posted the same information)

Discussion: Tesla Vision system for Model 3/Y

Maybe not. I just found out that the latest model Ys no longer have the passenger seat lumbar support control. If you're way too long you may no longer get a steering wheel lol Literally... Tesla is looking at eliminating the steering wheel.

teslamotorsclub.com

I just posted about this too, this person's experience sounds like what I have been going through mostly just in the nighttime. I wonder if an eBay Tesla radars can still be added. Maybe the cable is still there? I bought this car mainly for my wife and to do more road trips. It is not the car I decided to buy. It is like I went to Ashley Furniture and picked out a couch, then got a much cheaper knock off delivered.

 

[jjrandorin]

I just posted about this too, this person's experience sounds like what I have been going through mostly just in the nighttime. I wonder if an eBay Tesla radars can still be added. Maybe the cable is still there? I bought this car mainly for my wife and to do more road trips. It is not the car I decided to buy. It is like I went to Ashley Furniture and picked out a couch, then got a much cheaper knock off delivered.

Since we are using analogies, it would be a bit more like you went to ashley furniture to buy a couch, but before you went to pick it up, they told you that manufacturing had changed on it to newer springs that were going to feel different, but "they will break in, eventually", then you decided to take delivery anyway. Then you sit on it as soon as its delivered, and dont like how it feels.

(you had to accept tesla vision in order to take delivery, right?)

 

[twc]

Since we are using analogies, it would be a bit more like you went to ashley furniture to buy a couch, but before you went to pick it up, they told you that manufacturing had changed on it to newer springs that were going to feel different, but "they will break in, eventually", then you decided to take delivery anyway. Then you sit on it as soon as its delivered, and dont like how it feels.

(you had to accept tesla vision in order to take delivery, right?)

Yes, I did. At the same time I didn't know it was going to be this bad. It also wasn't the setup you signed up for in the first place. It isn't the car I tested either. I also didn't get notified that my passenger lumber support was going to be removed either. I didn't I get an acceptance page for that too.

 

[jjrandorin]

Yes, I did. At the same time I didn't know it was going to be this bad. It also wasn't the setup you signed up for in the first place. It isn't the car I tested either. I also didn't get notified that my passenger lumber support was going to be removed either. I didn't I get an acceptance page for that too.

The lumbar missing in the passenger seat complaint, I totally get (but thats not this thread). The rest, I feel my analogy is accurate based on the furniture analogy you were going for. I also said a few things in this thread earlier, with my own personal opinions on this:

The fact that they mention they are asking owners to accept the change, means that there is virtually zero chance they will "fit the car with sensors later".

Purchase or dont, but dont purchase it thinking "if this doesnt work tesla will fit radar to my car later" cause there is virtually no chance of that happening in my opinion (just like they have not fitted anyone with rain sensors, even though their automatic wipers basically have never operated as good as other manufacturers with sensors).

(personal opinion post, not speaking for TMC, other moderators, or anyone other than myself)

I posted the little blurb above, because, while many members here may already know that when I am posting "as a mod" I specifically call it out, and anything else is just "jjrandorins opinion". With that being said, I also understand that sometimes, people view moderators words as "weightier" unless its specifically called out its just a regular person making a regular opinion.

================================================

Only speaking for myself, if I was in the shoes of someone buying a model 3 / Y "right now" and could hold off for a bit (a few months), I would. I would want to see what others experiences were.

Now, if I really needed to have a car, I think I would still go ahead, but thats because I have owned one of these for 2+ years, and even though I have FSD, find that I enjoy driving it too much to use FSD a lot unless I am in traffic or something.

Everyones use or tolerance to be a "tester" for this type of thing is different. There is no shame in deciding to hold off, if one can do so, and is wary of this change. If I was buying a car and could hold off for a few months, I likely would hold off, or try to get a late model used one with radar still in it. Thats just because I feel it is going to take tesla some time to "work this out" and I would want the same model 3 that everyone else was getting.

It may end up to be better, or it may not, we wont know till we look at it with hindsight. Thats just what I would do, and I dont envy all of you who have to make that choice yourselves right now.

No right answer, just risk tolerance or lack thereof.

Anyone who decides to go through with delivery needs to understand that they will have to "deal with" whatever it is right now. If you dont choose to wait, and choose to move forward, thats obviously a personal decision, but at that point I then feel someone has made the decision to wait it out, and all that entails.

 

[MikeyC]

I just posted about this too, this person's experience sounds like what I have been going through mostly just in the nighttime. I wonder if an eBay Tesla radars can still be added. Maybe the cable is still there? I bought this car mainly for my wife and to do more road trips. It is not the car I decided to buy. It is like I went to Ashley Furniture and picked out a couch, then got a much cheaper knock off delivered.

I wondered that too. The wiring harness is likely still there, but if you plug it in, will the software recognize it? Also, if you have a car with radar and you unplug it, will it automatically use Tesla Vision?

Mike

 

[epj3]

The lumbar missing in the passenger seat complaint, I totally get (but thats not this thread). The rest, I feel my analogy is accurate based on the furniture analogy you were going for.

I'm going to disagree with you here. Tesla continues to describe the features of Autopilot without caveats. However, people are finding that in practice, Autopilot doesn't work outside of perfect daytime conditions or with a lot of compromise.

I think a better analogy would be that you ordered a recliner sofa and get a call describing last-minute changes to the recliner mechanism. You accept because they're still describing it as a recliner, and I mean, they sell lots of couches. But you find out that the recliner randomly falls to the ground when the temperature is outside of a precise 71-73 degree window, so ultimately useless. Your house temperature is only in that window maybe a few weeks each year. Is it still, practically, a recliner?

 

[linux-works]

But you find out that the recliner randomly falls to the ground when the temperature is outside of a precise 71-73 degree window, so ultimately useless. Your house temperature is only in that window maybe a few weeks each year. Is it still, practically, a recliner?

just one question: does the recliner watch me as I watch tv? and does it go all blue in the face if I dont pet it enough?

 

[ShaolinJ]

If the cameras are exactly the same then I don't see them leaving radar enabled on existing model 3/Ys when Tesla Vision is fully rolled out.

Combining vision with radar that allows the car to see beyond immediate surroundings (and in reduced visibility situations) seems to be a more ideal solution. Sure hope they've done some testing where the cameras are obscured by rain/dirt/mud/fog. Raindrops can really distort images right. What do I know though.

I would think that would leave tesla vulnerable to a class action suit. The new owners have to agree to the lack of radar if they ordered before the change.

 

[ShaolinJ]

IANAL, but I have to wonder if Tesla is opening itself up to a class action lawsuit if enough people who bought cars with a list of features find themselves without some of those features for an extended period of time, or potentially a permanent reduction in capability (there's nothing but crickets from the company on whether cars with HW2.5 have the processing horsepower to handle Tesla Vision for basic AP/TACC and other functions). I'll have to consult my original documents to see if I consented to allow Tesla to downgrade features as part of a broader software license agreement...

For owners that bought prior to the official change, my guess is that Tesla will not be able to remove radar, a class action suit would be guaranteed.

 

[MP3Mike]

For owners that bought prior to the official change, my guess is that Tesla will not be able to remove radar, a class action suit would be guaranteed.

Yep they all want to keep the radar in use, because they love to get out in the cold and clear the mud/ice/snow/slush off the bumper cover in front of the radar so that they can continue to use TACC/AP on their drive.

 

[croman]

Yep they all want to keep the radar in use, because they love to get out in the cold and clear the mud/ice/snow/slush off the bumper cover in front of the radar so that they can continue to use TACC/AP on their drive.

It's actually not really a big deal. The Bosch radar keeps operating through most everything but slush and truck spray allowing TACC and AP in tricky weather like rain and fog. Sticky wet snow accumulates but also slides off. The license plate is a magnet though.

 

[MaxHG]

This is a long ready for those who feel like understanding the perspective of an ideal Tesla customer.

I’ve already posted my dissatisfaction with the “sudden“ change to Tesla Vision on this thread but I feel compelled to say more seeing all the comments…

I am the ideal Tesla customer. Love the Company, all their models, even like Elon Musk. Understand he’s running a company and needs to make decisions that sometimes are not ideal. I have even got a referral in the past week with another probably to come so even though I am currently unhappy I still believe Tesla is an amazing car (and space) company. Think of what Tesla has accomplished. They are the first real successful car company in over 100 years.

I’ve wanted a Tesla for a long time. Since the Model S signature series. Times change needs and life happens. I am now at the point where it makes sense as the Model Y fits my needs based on size, range, and price.

I drive 130 miles a day, 6 days a week round trip. 124 of those miles are Highway with 6 city. I live in south Florida thus foul rain weather is frequent. Does not include additional errands or personal use. Spending over $700 monthly on gas alone. I own my cars not lease. Currently driving a 2010 Nissan Pathfinder. Have a 2008 BMW 525i plus a couple of classic cars.

The change to electric makes sense. The savings on fuel alone will pay for the Tesla while I get to drive a newer and “safer” vehicle.

My want and Must have check list:
Electric - Want
Cargo Space - Needs to be ample (the Y barely accommodates but will do)
Seating - Seven seater
Price - 40K to 60K (I don‘t want to get into Model X price territory)
Active Safety Features - This one is non negotiable. I already own a car without any active safety features. I want to upgrade.
Auto Pilot - this is a nice to have but not a must have
FSD - I don’t care for this feature in its current state. If it got close to competed I would buy it at that time.
Crash Test - Five start ratings - Tesla’s shine here
Cool - Yes, I want to like my vehicle and enjoy it every day. Tesla’s are simply cool machines.

I am willing to accept Tesla’s initial build quality miss-haps. I hate paint defects, miss-aligned panels and trim etc but I am in the mindset that I can have these addressed with service prior to taking delivery. My check list ready. If too messed up I would pass and wait for another.

I wait some months for the Model Y to get through its major build quality issues and wanted to see the arrival of the third row. I test drive a Model Y and really liked it. That was in March. I wait to see a third row example and test drive the seven seater first week of May. It checks off all the boxes above, especially the active safety features. I place my order early May prior to the announcement of a change to Tesla Vision.

With my 130 miles of driving a day I want the active safety features. I wanted the Auto Pilot. I leave the house between 5:30 am and 6:30 am Drive home anytime between 4:30pmas and 7pm. The drive is between 1 to 2 hours each way depending on traffic. I do have a spotless driving record going on 34 years but I am tried sometimes. Leaving early and working long hours make me want to have active safety features that will back me up. Two sets of eyes are better than one.

The Model Y’s I test drove all have functioning active safety features. (Bare with me on the Tesla Technical names not being accurate)
Emergency Lane Departure Avoidance
Automatic Auto Emergency Breaking (am still advised my my SA that this is not fully functional)
Smart Cruise Control - or Tesla‘s version and name
Auto Pilot - this was a great thing for me with 124 miles of highway driving
All features which I want to help make sure I get to work and home safe. These are not optional for me and were there when I researched and test drove the Model Y. Now they aren’t. They may come back but they aren’t there now. Not as before. Recent owner reviews shows that. I also don‘t like what I read about the auto highbeams. Not good for South Florida on the i95 or Turnpike full of cars.

Where my confidence is weak is that Tesla will have the Tesla Vision reach “parity“ with the Radar based cars in quick order. I don‘t believe that in two weeks this will be resolved. I can wait for FSD and if it never materialized as advertised I wouldn’t be bothered by it since I planned to only buy it once ready to not be called beta.

As mentioned already, buyers should make a decision based on whats working now and not what’s coming soon if the “coming soon active safety features“ are important to them. To me, an ideal Tesla customer, the active safety features are. For this reason I will not take delivery until Tesla Vision has reached the level where it restores all my checked off boxes. Even though I consider myself a better than average driver with a clean 34 year driving record to back it up, I want them. A vehicle of this caliber from a high tech auto company it should be standard and functioning.

Not happy about it and still love Tesla but, I will wait and see what happens.

 

[WhiteWi]

This is a long ready for those who feel like understanding the perspective of an ideal Tesla customer.

I’ve already posted my dissatisfaction with the “sudden“ change to Tesla Vision on this thread but I feel compelled to say more seeing all the comments…

I am the ideal Tesla customer. Love the Company, all their models, even like Elon Musk. Understand he’s running a company and needs to make decisions that sometimes are not ideal. I have even got a referral in the past week with another probably to come so even though I am currently unhappy I still believe Tesla is an amazing car (and space) company. Think of what Tesla has accomplished. They are the first real successful car company in over 100 years.

I’ve wanted a Tesla for a long time. Since the Model S signature series. Times change needs and life happens. I am now at the point where it makes sense as the Model Y fits my needs based on size, range, and price.

I drive 130 miles a day, 6 days a week round trip. 124 of those miles are Highway with 6 city. I live in south Florida thus foul rain weather is frequent. Does not include additional errands or personal use. Spending over $700 monthly on gas alone. I own my cars not lease. Currently driving a 2010 Nissan Pathfinder. Have a 2008 BMW 525i plus a couple of classic cars.

The change to electric makes sense. The savings on fuel alone will pay for the Tesla while I get to drive a newer and “safer” vehicle.

My want and Must have check list:
Electric - Want
Cargo Space - Needs to be ample (the Y barely accommodates but will do)
Seating - Seven seater
Price - 40K to 60K (I don‘t want to get into Model X price territory)
Active Safety Features - This one is non negotiable. I already own a car without any active safety features. I want to upgrade.
Auto Pilot - this is a nice to have but not a must have
FSD - I don’t care for this feature in its current state. If it got close to competed I would buy it at that time.
Crash Test - Five start ratings - Tesla’s shine here
Cool - Yes, I want to like my vehicle and enjoy it every day. Tesla’s are simply cool machines.

I am willing to accept Tesla’s initial build quality miss-haps. I hate paint defects, miss-aligned panels and trim etc but I am in the mindset that I can have these addressed with service prior to taking delivery. My check list ready. If too messed up I would pass and wait for another.

I wait some months for the Model Y to get through its major build quality issues and wanted to see the arrival of the third row. I test drive a Model Y and really liked it. That was in March. I wait to see a third row example and test drive the seven seater first week of May. It checks off all the boxes above, especially the active safety features. I place my order early May prior to the announcement of a change to Tesla Vision.

With my 130 miles of driving a day I want the active safety features. I wanted the Auto Pilot. I leave the house between 5:30 am and 6:30 am Drive home anytime between 4:30pmas and 7pm. The drive is between 1 to 2 hours each way depending on traffic. I do have a spotless driving record going on 34 years but I am tried sometimes. Leaving early and working long hours make me want to have active safety features that will back me up. Two sets of eyes are better than one.

The Model Y’s I test drove all have functioning active safety features. (Bare with me on the Tesla Technical names not being accurate)
Emergency Lane Departure Avoidance
Automatic Auto Emergency Breaking (am still advised my my SA that this is not fully functional)
Smart Cruise Control - or Tesla‘s version and name
Auto Pilot - this was a great thing for me with 124 miles of highway driving
All features which I want to help make sure I get to work and home safe. These are not optional for me and were there when I researched and test drove the Model Y. Now they aren’t. They may come back but they aren’t there now. Not as before. Recent owner reviews shows that. I also don‘t like what I read about the auto highbeams. Not good for South Florida on the i95 or Turnpike full of cars.

Where my confidence is weak is that Tesla will have the Tesla Vision reach “parity“ with the Radar based cars in quick order. I don‘t believe that in two weeks this will be resolved. I can wait for FSD and if it never materialized as advertised I wouldn’t be bothered by it since I planned to only buy it once ready to not be called beta.

As mentioned already, buyers should make a decision based on whats working now and not what’s coming soon if the “coming soon active safety features“ are important to them. To me, an ideal Tesla customer, the active safety features are. For this reason I will not take delivery until Tesla Vision has reached the level where it restores all my checked off boxes. Even though I consider myself a better than average driver with a clean 34 year driving record to back it up, I want them. A vehicle of this caliber from a high tech auto company it should be standard and functioning.

Not happy about it and still love Tesla but, I will wait and see what happens.

Thank you for adult reasonable opinion!

 

[MaxHG]

Thank you for adult reasonable opinion!

Adult… I so donot consider myself an adult. Maybe a big kid.

Max

 

[jaybopp82]

Has it always been a requirement that auto-dimming headlights be enabled when using TACC or AP? I do not like this feature because it flashes at other cars when driving on the interstate, etc. I disabled it, but noticed it must be on when using either TACC or AP. Is this new, or just temporary since they recently enabled Tesla Vision?

I won't be using either of these at night due to the headlights. Disappointed.

 

[MentalNomad]

This is supposed to be a "safety" system. Do you feel safer as it stands right now?

If I have fewer sudden lurch slowdowns on the highway, but it still slams on the brakes if I unattentively approach someone too fast at an off-ramp, then yes. I feel safer.

And I see no reason it can't give me just as much protection against my own errors as before.

I do look forward to it no longer waiting absurdly long before continuing when a car makes a left turn in front of me; I believe this is primarily due to RADAR. The vision can clearly see when the other car is clear of my path, but all the RADAR knows is "big thingy roughly 15 meters away somewhere vaguely in front," and that's still true after it's no longer directly in front of me.

RADAR seems to have some advantages as a radar Tesla can follow the lead car in front even when there are no visible lane lines.

That was not possible by dint of RADAR, which can tell you nothing about lane lines or the position of the vehicle to be followed - that's all vision! RADAR know sthat a car is 40 meters in front of you, but cannot know if it's in your lane, or an adjacent lane. It's a fixed radar, not a spinning radar that gives vectors.

Radar adds a measure of safety against a car in front of you slamming on the breaks, especially the car 2 vehicles ahead of you (something which often cannot be seen.) The Vision + RADAR system was validated to do certain things. Now, the Vision-only system will need sufficient miles of RADAR-less safe operation before it can be validated at all the same speeds/conditions as before.

Some things can be validated quickly, but others cannot... developing enough "test cases" of rare things (like narrowly avoiding a rear-ender) to develop a statistic with high confidence can take many millions of miles, which would take much too long on a small test fleet. However, if you simply nerf the capability slightly (for safety) and roll the feature out to the entire fleet, you can validate it much more quickly because you generate reams of data, and then the capabilities can be tweaked up when it's found to be safe. (Or, if it needs improvement, the improvement can be done first, then validated, then tweaked upwards.)