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MASTER THREAD: Powering house or other things with Model 3

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Just found this thread, I had my own thread here:

I ended up writing my solution here:
I own a Jackery and highly recommend it. Lightweight, nice design... One small problem is, the "fast charging" is only available starting from 110 volts. The Jackery 1500 in particular can be charged at about 600 Watts with the stock AC-DC converter chargers that come with it. So charging it from a model 3, one could: use an inverter connected to the DC-DC converter under the rear seat to transform from 14 V to 110 volts AC, and then plug the stock converter that they sell with the Jackery into that inverter. This would work; the efficiency could be around 80%.

But it might be nice, and more efficient, to avoid those up and down steps: would it be possible to design something that can DC fast charge the Jackery 1500? Two 300 Watt DC chargers that run in parallel* and charge the Jackery 1500 at 600 Watts?

* That is the way the Jackery 1500 is designed. Two 300 Watt chargers running simulateously and powered by AC 100 volts. Each one is, I believe, a converter that converts from 110 AC to about 12.5 volts DC.
 
90A would be no issue for the DC-DC converter but I would suggest bigger Anderson connectors. I use SB150 with 1/0 cables to minimize voltage drop and current draw. For your case, maybe SB120 and 2AWG?

BTW, I only used Ecoflow Delta as an example and not recommending it per se as I have no experience using it. Please do your own research to pick appropriate battery station.
Thanks, I will study that. I personally own 2 Jackery's and I highly recommend them. The design and components seem excellent and they are very light-weight as well as totally "plug and play"! My feeling is Jackery is best of breed, especially with the new Jackery 1500 which charges at 600 Watts.
 
The point of this thread is to examine how a Tesla can be used in a practical manner to run a home fridge, home freezer, camping fridge and other comparable devices that tend to draw fairly low, semi-continuous power.
Summary of terms:
Watt is a unit of power. A kilowatt is 1000 Watts.
Kilowatt hour (kWh) is a unit of energy. A long-range model 3 battery holds about 75 kWh.

A home fridge uses about 1 kWh per day or about 1 to 2% of the capacity of a Tesla battery. (It does that by being “on” about 50% of the time and drawing 80 Watts when on, roughly.) A camping fridge such as the Dometic DZ65DZ uses about half that much energy per day. They key to running any refrigerator or cooler using energy from your Tesla battery is an intermediate battery in my opinion. The battery in your frunk is not well-suited to this task (too small). An additional 12 volt lead-acid battery is an option, however, a better and more practical choice is a lithium-ion battery system such as a Goal Zero Yeti, a Jackery or an Eco-Flow, to mention a few. These provide a useful buffer and can improve efficiency considerably in some scenarios. For brevity, I will call these “jacket batteries”: they include a battery made with cells like those in your Tesla, as well as built in inverters and converters that can supply 110 volt, 12 volt and 5 volt power fro your use. Let’s examine some specific scenarios here.

Scenario 1. Using a Jackery 1000 to run your home fridge and freezer: A Jackery 1000 can run your home fridge and freezer. It can handle to starting surges; it works fine and it is small, quiet and lightweight. (I am sure the Goal Zero, EcoFlow and other would work as well.) About 8 or 10 hours into a power outage you will need to charge your “jacket battery”. Here is where things get less than ideal. You can plug it into the 12 volt port in your Tesla and put the car in camp mode, however, the Jackery charges slowly (at about 100 Watts) and the overhead associated with keeping your car in camp mode is about 300 to 400 Watts, so this is extremely inefficient. Charging more rapidly is possible, but may involve tapping into power intended for your stereo system speakers. Maybe people would like to discuss this below? Overall, this is doable and helpful for shorter power outages, but tends to be inefficient in the long run due to the slow charging speeds of the jacket batteries. Efficiency could be improved by finding faster ways to charge jacket batteries and figuring out camping or dog modes with the least overhead. Suggestions are welcome!

Scenario 2. Using a small jacket battery as an interface to a portable Dometic fridge for travel or camping. Traveling with a Dometic fridge in a Tesla is fairly common. A small jacket battery can really improve the efficiency and practicality of this. I use a Jackery 250 (0.25 kWh capacity), which is small, light-weight and quiet, to run a Dometic 65DZ. While driving one can either charge the Jackery or run the Dometic fridge directly from the 12 volt power of your Tesla. When you are not driving, you won’t need to use camp mode because the jacket battery can run your fridge for up to about 24 hours. You could go with a 0.5 kWh battery if you want more power. These cost roughly $1 per Watt-hour, that is, about $250 for the smaller battery, $500 for the 0.5 kWh one. Overall, this works great and is a big improvement, in my opinion, in terms of not having to keep your car in camp mode overnight and some other machination when you are not driving.

Scenario 1, running a home fridge, is limited by charging speed issues. These could be less of an issue with the CyberTruck, which will presumably have 110 volt outlets capable of about 1500 Watts which are active in camp mode. This would enable charging a 1 kWh jacket battery in an hour or so, which would be much more efficient. However, I don’t see any fundamental reason why a Tesla sedan cannot, in principle, be used to fast-charge a jacket battery. This would involve developing a practical way to tap into a roughly a 1000 Watt source on the Tesla, as well as developing a fast charger for a jacket battery. Suggestions are welcome and encouraged. I am hoping to develop a compendium of practical ideas for use of Tesla car energy for refrigeration during power outages and while traveling. (Yes, I do realize this is not the first thread on this topic and I would like to acknowledge that I have learned a lot from reading other threads on this topic.)
I would be interested in Scenario 1, but here again I see references to anywhere from 200W to 400W of system overhead while in Camp or Sentry or Dog modes. That seems to be in conflict with the owner's manual I downloaded here:


On p. 23 it says [emphasis mine]:

"The power socket is suitable for accessories requiring up to 12A continuous draw (16A peak).

NOTE: Power is available whenever the vehicle is considered "awake". The vehicle may be awake for many reasons. For example, when using features such as Summon, or when features such as Cabin Overheat Protection, Keep Climate On, Dog Mode, Sentry Mode, etc. are enabled. The vehicle is also awake whenever the 12V battery is being charged or is in use, during HV charging, when the vehicle is communicating with the mobile app, etc. Leaving an accessory plugged in does not deplete the 12V battery."


That seems to imply that if you plugged in to the power socket and started draining the 12V battery, that wakes up the car and lets you continue indefinitely. Since I've I've seen comments suggesting that different modes draw different amounts of power, perhaps just a 12V load might 'wake up' the car just enough to keep track of that, with a substantially reduced system overhead maybe? That would certainly be important to know when considering the horrible efficiency of low-power charging for long times with a high system load.

Has anyone verified that simply plugging a small charger into the power socket suficiently wakes up the car? Is there an easy way to determine the separate load and system power draws while that happens?
 
I read through everything in this thread and Marc Merlin’s outstanding thread and posts from 2019. I really appreciate all that Marc Merlin, miimura, n2nb_racing, cali8484, rrolsbe and others have figured out. What I sketched here is really just a tweak of what has already been worked out in detail by other people. Anyway, I’d like to present a suggestion for something that may be practical, and which takes advantage specifically of the parallel charging set-up of the Jackery E1500. This set-up may cost a bit more than a basic generator, but the idea of 70 kWh of quiet clean energy sitting in my garage is infinitely tempting! I do own two conventional generators as well as two Jackery power stations (short for jacket battery). Among the Li-ion battery/inverter systems available, Jackery is the best, in my opinion, in terms of quietness and weight, as well as overall design and ease of use. They interface really well with portable solar panels, and I am hoping that the E1500 will interface well with the Tesla model 3 as well.

The existence of two parallel charging channels for the Jackery makes it possible to use smaller wire, 8 AWG, than one might otherwise need. I am also hoping that with this relatively small inverter, e.g., a Victron Energy Phoenix 500, it may be possible to turn it on without using precharge circuitry? I am not sure. What do you think? Critique is welcome!
IMG_0257.PNG

Basically the idea is to install the small Anderson power pole connector panel, wired for 45 amps in each channel, and just leave that in the car connected to the PCS (14 volts). That then serves as a 2nd source of DC power available when the car is on (like the cigarette style power-port but without such stringent current restriction). 300 Watts per side means each channel will draw about 25 amps at 13 volts. Overall charging rate is 600 watts meaning the Jackery E1500 will charge 10% to 90% in 2 hours. For that 1.2 kWh of energy which you can use, the overhead is only about 0.4 kW in sentinel mode (as per cali8484). The E1500 can effortlessly run your fridge and freezer. No need for long wires since fridge and freezer can easily be left unplugged for a couple hours while you are charging (or you can run in pass-thru mode if you prefer).
 
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Your diagram and general approach looks reasonable. However, I would put fuses or DC breakers between the PCS and the positive Anderson connectors.
Thanks miimura. Yes, fast fuses or DC breakers. Will do. I could probably also find a better panel with switches built in in addition. BTW, it was your advice that led me to the Victron Energy inverter choice.
 
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Just found this thread, I had my own thread here:

I ended up writing my solution here:
Marc. Great to see you here. Your pioneering work is deeply appreciated!!
 
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For anyone not comfortable doing the wiring, you can always get your local custom audio pros to set it up for a fee. Custom audio guys use the DC-DC converter for high power amps that can easily draw 1000W+ without problems.

As for voiding warranty, it's a red herring. It's actually illegal in the US to automatically void warranty. Read the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act. Manufacturers must explicit show damages resulted directly from an aftermarket add-on in order to void warranty. The custom car audio industry knows this very well. Manufacturers like to put "warranty void if removed" stickers everywhere but they are not actually legally valid but they are good for scaring off uninformed consumers.

On the warranty piece - the Tesla warranty explicitly states that using your car as a stationary power source violates the warranty. (In theory they could use this against a inverter plugged into the 12V line), but at the very least if you damage something you might be without a car for a while or a big bill while you fight out the warranty with Tesla. The Inverter pulling from the 12V plug has no real risk like this since there's no custom wiring and it's fused nicely.

Btw I'm not saying don't tap in if you want to -- I'm just sharing there is a way to power full size fridges, freezers, etc and leverage the Model 3's battery without any custom wiring or major warranty worries, or invoking legal acts to ensure they repair/replace parts even when you're using the car clearly against the manual's wishes :).
 
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What I don't like abut Jackery and similar is that I would hardly use the product. I use EGO batteries from my lawn equipment for small backup.

For large backup I use a propane capable generator and 40lb propane tanks. Propane stores indefinitely. Personally I wouldn't store propane in an attached garage.

I don't use gas anymore. And as most people know gasoline storage problematic.

My next EV will allow at least 1500W AC output. If Tesla doesn't want to provide that functionality I'm sure other manufacturers will step up.
 
On the warranty piece - the Tesla warranty explicitly states that using your car as a stationary power source violates the warranty. (In theory they could use this against a inverter plugged into the 12V line), but at the very least if you damage something you might be without a car for a while or a big bill while you fight out the warranty with Tesla. The Inverter pulling from the 12V plug has no real risk like this since there's no custom wiring and it's fused nicely.

Btw I'm not saying don't tap in if you want to -- I'm just sharing there is a way to power full size fridges, freezers, etc and leverage the Model 3's battery without any custom wiring or major warranty worries, or invoking legal acts to ensure they repair/replace parts even when you're using the car clearly against the manual's wishes :).

As I explained, manufacturers can put anything in their warranty but it doesn't mean it's legally valid. BTW, camp mode is essentially using the car as stationary power.
 
What I don't like abut Jackery and similar is that I would hardly use the product. I use EGO batteries from my lawn equipment for small backup.

For large backup I use a propane capable generator and 40lb propane tanks. Propane stores indefinitely. Personally I wouldn't store propane in an attached garage.

I don't use gas anymore. And as most people know gasoline storage problematic.

My next EV will allow at least 1500W AC output. If Tesla doesn't want to provide that functionality I'm sure other manufacturers will step up.

You won't have to wait long.


Ioniq 5 will provide 3600W and scheduled for launch in US this year.
 
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I am looking into the trend of V2L application.

Known Elon has teased about the dedicated AC outlet on CyberTruck, there are rumors ( source reliability unclear) about 2020 and newer 3 that their OBCs are aleady capable of functioning as an utility interactive inverter.

Any of you have the specs? What is the likelihood Tesla will enable a Discharge mode.

Accessory Products like this Discharge connector + Strip is aleardy on Markets in Asia.

V2L on Market.png
 
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I read through everything in this thread and Marc Merlin’s outstanding thread and posts from 2019. I really appreciate all that Marc Merlin, miimura, n2nb_racing, cali8484, rrolsbe and others have figured out. What I sketched here is really just a tweak of what has already been worked out in detail by other people. Anyway, I’d like to present a suggestion for something that may be practical, and which takes advantage specifically of the parallel charging set-up of the Jackery E1500. This set-up may cost a bit more than a basic generator, but the idea of 70 kWh of quiet clean energy sitting in my garage is infinitely tempting! I do own two conventional generators as well as two Jackery power stations (short for jacket battery). Among the Li-ion battery/inverter systems available, Jackery is the best, in my opinion, in terms of quietness and weight, as well as overall design and ease of use. They interface really well with portable solar panels, and I am hoping that the E1500 will interface well with the Tesla model 3 as well.

The existence of two parallel charging channels for the Jackery makes it possible to use smaller wire, 8 AWG, than one might otherwise need. I am also hoping that with this relatively small inverter, e.g., a Victron Energy Phoenix 500, it may be possible to turn it on without using precharge circuitry? I am not sure. What do you think? Critique is welcome!
View attachment 654890
Basically the idea is to install the small Anderson power pole connector panel, wired for 45 amps in each channel, and just leave that in the car connected to the PCS (14 volts). That then serves as a 2nd source of DC power available when the car is on (like the cigarette style power-port but without such stringent current restriction). 300 Watts per side means each channel will draw about 25 amps at 13 volts. Overall charging rate is 600 watts meaning the Jackery E1500 will charge 10% to 90% in 2 hours. For that 1.2 kWh of energy which you can use, the overhead is only about 0.4 kW in sentinel mode (as per cali8484). The E1500 can effortlessly run your fridge and freezer. No need for long wires since fridge and freezer can easily be left unplugged for a couple hours while you are charging (or you can run in pass-thru mode if you prefer).
actually, I think this can be done without using any inverters between the Jackery E1500 and the 14 volts at the DC-DC converter. If you just up convert to 48 volts, I think then the Jackery E1500 will then probably charge at 6 amps x 48 volts... In each channel. That is my impression. Does that seem correct?

I think that makes this cheaper and more efficient. I could do a new drawing if anyone is interested.
 
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What I don't like abut Jackery and similar is that I would hardly use the product. I use EGO batteries from my lawn equipment for small backup.

For large backup I use a propane capable generator and 40lb propane tanks. Propane stores indefinitely. Personally I wouldn't store propane in an attached garage.

I don't use gas anymore. And as most people know gasoline storage problematic.

My next EV will allow at least 1500W AC output. If Tesla doesn't want to provide that functionality I'm sure other manufacturers will step up.
yes, but you then you won't have a Tesla or self driving. seems like tail wagging the dog to me.
 
actually, I think this can be done without using any inverters between the Jackery E1500 and the 14 volts at the DC-DC converter. If you just up convert to 48 volts, I think then the Jackery E1500 will then probably charge at 6 amps x 48 volts... In each channel. That is my impression. Does that seem correct?

I think that makes this cheaper and more efficient. I could do a new drawing if anyone is interested.
this could be wired close to the DC-DC converter with about 4 AWG or larger diameter? It would draw about 48 amps continuous on the input side only. On the output side it would just be 48 V and 6 + 6 amps. smaller wires and 8 mm connectors into the E1500 charging inputs. However, does anyone have an idea as to whether connecting this DC DC up-converter to the Model 3 PCS would cause a transient current surge??
DayGreen12-48.png
 
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actually, I think this can be done without using any inverters between the Jackery E1500 and the 14 volts at the DC-DC converter. If you just up convert to 48 volts, I think then the Jackery E1500 will then probably charge at 6 amps x 48 volts... In each channel. That is my impression. Does that seem correct?

I think that makes this cheaper and more efficient. I could do a new drawing if anyone is interested.

It can work with a DC-DC converter matched to the battery and charger in the E1500. DC-DC converters may not limit current except to shut off (or worse) when over current. The DC charger in E1500 should have current limit control. The E1500 specifies 48V "nominal" for DC charger input but depending on that battery chemistry and configuration the "actual" voltage required may be significantly higher. 48V "nominal" batteries may require 60V+ "actual" to charge properly.
 
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