Keep in mind that a powerwall is the same battery technology as is in your vehicle thus demonstrating pretty conclusively that your car's battery could be used to power your house and it could be used for vehicle to grid as well. The electronics and battery are there. What is not there is the systems engineering nor infrastructure that would allow this to the satisfaction of the utilities, politicians, manufacturers, NFPA etc.
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MASTER THREAD: Powering house or other things with Model 3
- Thread starter Vines
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Wow. The way you state something false so authoritatively is just breathtaking!
California investigators confirmed that it was PG&E equipment failures that caused the huge "Camp" fire, and PG&E themselves also confirmed it. (See links below) Let's stick to what is true, OK? However, it's a separate issue that I don't necessarily think that I agree that they should have been held liable for that accident. The lawsuit conclusion was that it was negligence which led to the accident, and I just don't know if there was enough basis for that.
California Says PG&E Power Lines Caused Camp Fire That Killed 85
Investigators confirm that PG&E power lines started the deadly Camp Fire
PG&E details power line damage near ignition of Camp Fire
Well actually there were multiple fires from other years, one of which that happened.
https://psmag.com/news/pg-e-didnt-start-the-fire-but-human-caused-fires-are-on-the-rise
I didn't know that about Camp Fire - on the east coast we don't know the fires by name.
At any rate, this new solution is not a bad one for temporary, but I feel like it will keep on for a while.
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n2mb_racing
Active Member
I think they use a slightly different chemistry. Car batteries prioritize energy density above all. Powerwall prioritizes cycle lifetime. They also only cycle 80-20%, or something similar, to extend the battery life.
That used to be true with the old PW1. PW2 use the same batteries coming off the line as the Model 3 - hence the shortage of PW2 packs and installations last year because of the battery shortage issue out of the GF.
All the tech is already onboard our Tesla cars to provide the bidirectional feeds. The old roadster had this capability. Nissan Leafs actually have this option -- gads. The Nissan Leaf outperforms Tesla cars here. In an outage-- we have 60+kw battery sitting in the driveway just waiting.
Luckily we have the PW2+Solar to keep us running, but would be GREAT to allow piggybacking the Model 3 to our PW2 via simple plug in emergency situations. Would sell a lot more PW2 and great PR for BEVs in general at PGE's expense.
I'm sure lots of Tesla owners in the Bay Area would agree to use their cars for backups right now
The technology is present in the sense that the cars have a battery which can be connected to a external port so it can be charged at a DC charger. But the firmware in the car has provisions to make sure that the battery can not be connected to that port unless connection to a DC fast charger is sensed. Approved EVSE is required to have means to prevent back connection.
It is certainly possible to engineer equipment containing inverters and communications features that would fool the car into thinking it is connected to a SC but I'd guess that protective circuits in the car would, upon sensing back flow, diagnose a fault and open the contactors. To make this work Tesla would have to be onboard and backfeeding EVSE, now illegal, would have to be avaiable. All doable, of course, but not at this point done. So no, the cars to not have the tech except in the broadest sense.
It is certainly possible to engineer equipment containing inverters and communications features that would fool the car into thinking it is connected to a SC but I'd guess that protective circuits in the car would, upon sensing back flow, diagnose a fault and open the contactors. To make this work Tesla would have to be onboard and backfeeding EVSE, now illegal, would have to be avaiable. All doable, of course, but not at this point done. So no, the cars to not have the tech except in the broadest sense.
Tesla cars have an onboard inverter. It should be able to convert without an issue back to AC. The tech isn't the issue but the politics with Utilities and the finances of Tesla in selling PW2 for the same function.
My suggested solution for Tesla -- allow piggybacking tesla cars to the PW2 that has the interconnect agreements already with utilities to use and allows Tesla to market the PW2 AND it's car functioning as a backup battery too.
The chorus is only going to get louder with the amount of PG&E shutoffs this weekend again.
We're doing just fine with PV+PW2. Same for my BIL up in the foothills east of San Fran. dropped down to 67% last night on regular use and charged up to 100% while doing normal activities today. 100% off-grid for 24hours now. Let's see how that works into days 2-3
My suggested solution for Tesla -- allow piggybacking tesla cars to the PW2 that has the interconnect agreements already with utilities to use and allows Tesla to market the PW2 AND it's car functioning as a backup battery too.
The chorus is only going to get louder with the amount of PG&E shutoffs this weekend again.
We're doing just fine with PV+PW2. Same for my BIL up in the foothills east of San Fran. dropped down to 67% last night on regular use and charged up to 100% while doing normal activities today. 100% off-grid for 24hours now. Let's see how that works into days 2-3
The only onboard inverter capable of DC to AC is in the motor. No path back out.
There are several issues. The inverters in the motors are designed to convert 380 VDC to 3 phase AC suitable to the motors at frequency and amplitude as required by driving conditions. The inverter required for feeding you house must produce single phase 240 VAC at 60 Hz.
Now that part is true. A more practical solution would be to allow a DC connection to the PW and to use its inverter which is designed for the same battery technology and the home load.
diamond.g
Active Member
Interesting, I was under the impression that the stationary storage products used NMC while the vehicles used NCA. Does the Leafs V2H work in the states? I thought it was disabled here. Also note that V2H is a part of chademo spec, CCS didn't initially include it. Tesla, not using either standard in the US, doesn't seem to be interested in V2H, especially when they sell a 'competing' product.
Since you are in CA then you are probably on a time of use energy rate right? A powerwall will possibly save you money on a normal basis as well. For the rest of the year where power isn't a problem, let your battery run your house (or help run) during peak pricing, and then let it charge overnight on the dirt cheap power.
A few of us in KC are considering doing this just for that reason. We have a new TOU option, 26 cents peak vs 4 cents off peak. I think my payoff wouldn't be for 9 years, but I'd also be gaining a whole house "generator".
That is certainly coming. Utilities have been planning on this for years. When it's ready, I expect people on programs that let the grid pull power from their car to not only charge their cars for free, but actually get paid for the privilege.
edstewbob
Member
This one looks interesting coming out next year that can be used to power a house up to 11kW and other vehicles in a pinch plus solar powered is a very interesting concept although limited.
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I just read this article. Would this be sufficient to keep a standard refrigerator/freezer running using the 12v socket in the console? Which one(s) on Amazon would fit the bill?
https://electrek.co/2019/11/08/evs-are-a-backup-during-california-fire-season/
https://electrek.co/2019/11/08/evs-are-a-backup-during-california-fire-season/
Silicon Desert
Well-Known Member
Some folks might have better solutions, but in my opinion, maybe yes, maybe no. My reasoning is even the newest most efficient refrigerators will draw an average of 70-100 Watts when then kick on, and for a brief second or two, they can draw 250 Watt range. So if you are lucky, you will be drawing a minimum of 6-8 amps with efficiency loses from an inverter. I'm not sure what the fuse rating is on that 12V socket in the Tesla. Someone else probably knows that info.
Someone on the Electrek article comments section provided this video. Well worth a watch for those of us getting subjected to PG&E power outages. This seems like a great band-aid fix for emergencies.
Now to research which inverter to get...
Now to research which inverter to get...
This article is dumb sensationalism without any technical knowledge whatsoever. Written quickly and for clickbait. Now you're here doing the research the author should have done and put in the article.
One person used their car to charge their phone and run a few lights and that is "news".
Notice that the appliances run were "a radio, computer, cell phone, and lights". Should you use it to run a refrigerator is a very different question.
What you want is a generator/advanced solar system.
Wouldn't something like this connected directly to the 12v battery work in an electrical outage situation to at least keep a refrigerator/freezer and a laptop running?
https://smile.amazon.com/dp/B07MS5BY6T/ref=twister_B07PMDVG9X?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1
You need to do the math on your refrigerator's max usage, the car's output power ~150W, as well as the total amount you want to draw "over time".
Here's some nice "gasoline inverters".
https://www.amazon.com/DuroStar-DS4000S-Starting-Portable-Generator
Gets you 30A.
DuroStar DS12000EH 12,000-Watt 18-Hp Portable Hybrid Gas Propane Generator 811640015640 | eBay
Gets you 100A.
https://www.amazon.com/DuroStar-DS4000S-Starting-Portable-Generator
Gets you 30A.
DuroStar DS12000EH 12,000-Watt 18-Hp Portable Hybrid Gas Propane Generator 811640015640 | eBay
Gets you 100A.
I am not interested in purchasing a gas or propane generator.
My understanding from @n2mb_racing's post is that we can draw a lot more power than 150W directly from the 12v battery (not the cigarette lighter) and the main battery in the Model 3 can provide power continuously in case of a power outage. It would only be used in the case of a power outage just to keep the refrigerator running and cell phone and laptop powered.
My understanding from @n2mb_racing's post is that we can draw a lot more power than 150W directly from the 12v battery (not the cigarette lighter) and the main battery in the Model 3 can provide power continuously in case of a power outage. It would only be used in the case of a power outage just to keep the refrigerator running and cell phone and laptop powered.
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