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Range Loss Over Time, What Can Be Expected, Efficiency, How to Maintain Battery Health

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So you're saying you just misspoke?

I didnt lay that much into the wording. Im not a native english speaker. As you could see there was another post just after where I posted print screens of the warranty document, here it is again. Tesla use the wording “will be” so I thought that would be okey for me to use as I refered to that document in the first post as well.
52691C47-BC8E-483A-9C06-12438831F5A2.jpeg



It would be nice if we could get back to the basic question instead of discussing grammar.

I did a search and didnt find many proof at all that your statment is valid, at least not here on TMC:’
For the warranty replacements I've heard of Tesla has supplied a replacement battery that worked similarly to new.

Actually, I could find a few more or less brand new cars that had battery failures that got new batteries. For me, if I hade a really new car and the battery failed, a new one feels like the only option and I would expect to get a new one. But for a car with a battery that did wear down below 70% capacity (which wont happen early after delivery) there might not be any new packs around at all.
 
I think it's fair to say every car is different. I charged my Model 3 to 90% every evening at 8pm for the first 3.5 years and it stayed plugged in at 90% when I wasn't using it. (For the remaining 4 months of ownership I charged to 80%). I put about 30k miles on the car including about 12k miles in each of the first two years. Despite charging to 90% my car had no degradation for the first 18 months or so and even after almost 4 years my degradation was a little less than 8%. I actually thought that was bad until I started reading this forum in December.

Not sure why my car apparently did so much better than others are reporting. I never preconditioned or took any other of the steps being recommended here.
 
None of those examples seem to have anything to do with the topic we are talking about here: warranty replacements for going below 70%.

I'll point out that if Tesla were to replace a battery pack that was under 70% range remaining it wouldn't make logical sense for them to replace it with a battery of comparable range as you say because then the owner would qualify for a new replacement under warranty.

Further most (all?) of those examples of replacements for other reasons support MY point not yours:
  1. This P85 owner says their range after replacement was 392 km which is about 92% of the rated range when new. That's a point for me.
  2. This S85 owner says their range after replacement was about 225 miles which is about 85% of the rated range when new. Since in this thread we're talking about an original pack that would be under 70% getting a replacement with 85% would be closer to the range when new than to their old range (but just barely). We'll call that a draw.
  3. This Model X owner says their range after replacement was about 345 miles which is right where a brand new pack would be (depending on wheels/tires). That's another point for me.
  4. This S60 owner says their range after replacement was 173 miles which is about 83% of the rated range when new. Since in this thread we're talking about an original pack that would be under 70% getting a replacement with 83% might possibly be closer to their old range than to the range when new (but just barely). We'll call that a draw.
  5. This S85 owner does not even say what their range was when the battery was replaced so how can you claim this proves your point? Were you hoping no one would read so far? What the owner did say is: "got more usable kWh" which I'm going to call a point for me.
Did you think no one would bother reading your examples? They pretty much prove my point not yours!
I didnt see this post until now but I think you are overreflecting my post.
I did a search and I was honest enough to use all examples I did find, in the exact order. I did NOT choose to deliberately not use the one i found which actually increased the range. I did write about one car with the increased range in a earlier post. I can not really see how you can manage to make that honest thing to a bad thing.
There was at least one guy that got a 85 or 90kWh battery instead of a 70, with a lot higher range but I would not bet my perfect battery for the 1% chance of that )
From that post, i find a similar spelling/grammar fault as another post earlier, the not is added now to make it right(i guess it is the phone’s autospell that changed wouldnt to would and than made it all backwards).

For S/X we know that the range do not decrease very much, at least not if reading teslas own statements or the graph from the tesla battery survey:
18D23D91-213B-479B-9F76-EB90F7871C79.jpeg

So if they use remanufactured batteries and most of them is around 85-90% of the new range, then we could expect the remanufactured to have about that range. Its oft course clear that Tesla have the right to use a battery with better range than the car had before the battery brake down, but that is probably nothing that @PartyBoy can count on. Original question was this by @PartyBoy:
A few pages back there was discussion of warranty and the triggers that get a HV battery replaced. Just out of curiosity, are there any hopeful longterm owners out there abusing the heck out of the HV battery in order to be able to get the battery replaced prior to warranty expiration?

My very sure opinion is that we should not say: “Yes, partyboy. Go for it and destroy the battery, you will get a brand new one when it breaks”
 
I think it's fair to say every car is different. I charged my Model 3 to 90% every evening at 8pm for the first 3.5 years and it stayed plugged in at 90% when I wasn't using it. (For the remaining 4 months of ownership I charged to 80%). I put about 30k miles on the car including about 12k miles in each of the first two years. Despite charging to 90% my car had no degradation for the first 18 months or so and even after almost 4 years my degradation was a little less than 8%. I actually thought that was bad until I started reading this forum in December.

Not sure why my car apparently did so much better than others are reporting. I never preconditioned or took any other of the steps being recommended here.
When researcher perform tests om batteries, they seem to behave very similar.
After reading and comparing at least 50 different research reports(never counted, but at least 50), Im positive that degradation is predictable within quite small margins if one have the data for a specific battery. Many test reports have the spread between individual batteries that was put into the exact same test. The differences between individual cells are small and if different research graphs is put on top of each other the pictures is quite clear. Lithium batteries that is used within the approved working range behave predictable.

Calendar aging is higher initially and reduces with square root of time.
No degradation in your first year, I take that as there was no reduction of range?
There is a degradation threshold at about 76kWh(for LR/P 2018/19 I think) so you could have lost about 2% without noticing any reduced range.
I also guess you see a reduction in range of 8% now, after four years? This would put the total degradation to about 10% as the two first percent can not be seen in range reduction.
If you have 10% after four years( with the same usage/charging etc) you propably had about 10 / (square root of four years) = 5% after the first year. (IRL theres also a cyclic shing but thst part is not very big if your car havent done many miles with deep cycles, so we can disregard that for simplicity)

The wording here on TMC is that degradation (on screen) happens in chunks, and my guess is that your BMS didnt follow the real degradstion exactly but instead made the best approximation it could do, temporary showing slightly higher range than the actual capacity would allow.

I still have full range, after 32000km, but first there is a degradation threshold about 1.5kWh below the new capacity, and also my charging schedule offset the BMS by little, and my car is hovering around the first step of showing degradation( I know this from reading the capacity with Scan My Tesla).
My own calculations( made about when I did get the car, predicted that the degradation would be around 2.5-3% after one year, which was three weeks back. That should put me at 79.5-80kWh nominal capacity. I have seen 80.4 steady for the last time, and had 80.2 the other day. I guess my steady value will creep down, and a range reduction will be seen soon. My prediction is 79.0 kWh in the middle of the summer.
( I will start driving much longer with deeper cycles but only about once a month so it probably do not change my degradation very much.)

That said, I think your degradation will be much less in the future. It most probably was more than you could see initially and it probably follows the square root of time.
After eight years you probably are around 14%( if my guess about the range was the reference), if 8% now you’ll see about 11-12% after eight years. All this if continuing to use the same charging schedule etc.
 
M3P driver but don't drive a ton, usually 7K per year. For long term battery life I have been keeping my car charge level usually at 80% when parked at home.
Is this a good idea or should I occasionally charge it to 100%?
The lower your average state of charge, the longer your battery will last. There's really no reason to charge to 100% unless you need the range.

In all cases, ideally your car finishes charging just before you leave for a drive.
 
I presume the biggest factor for degradation is ambient storage temperature which explains why we in the tropics all degrade so heavily.
I tried to counteract this by letting the car sit at <50% but it doesnt seem to help much.


Im moving to a colder climate next week and once autum starts in march ill let it sit at 90% all the time and see if some range comes back.

On an interesting notion, while cycling the car at 20-40% for over a month i let the car sit at 7.57% (true SOC 11.7-14.8%) and the car reported a voltage of around 3.34 per cell. which hopefully suggests the BMS is quite a bit confused (thats more like 30% SOC) and we can see some results when the battery is cycled from 100% to 0% a few times on my trip down south for 2000km.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: KenC
Haven't wrote here in a while. I'm one of the unlucky when it comes to battery.
When it was brand new in June 2021, my LR 2021 had 79.1kwh reported in SMT. Now, 8 months and 20.000 km later SMT is showing 74.6 KWh as nfp. To me this looks like on the far left of the degradation distribution for model 3 fleet.

I charged at 80% most of the time, going above that only right before going on a long trip. 75% of time I've charged at AC stations, with few supercharger sessions in between.

Not all batteries are created equal :(.
 
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Reactions: KenC
Haven't wrote here in a while. I'm one of the unlucky when it comes to battery.
When it was brand new in June 2021, my LR 2021 had 79.1kwh reported in SMT. Now, 8 months and 20.000 km later SMT is showing 74.6 KWh as nfp. To me this looks like on the far left of the degradation distribution for model 3 fleet.

I charged at 80% most of the time, going above that only right before going on a long trip. 75% of time I've charged at AC stations, with few supercharger sessions in between.

Not all batteries are created equal :(.

Completely normal and you are doing pretty much average.
 
Almost 6% degradation in less than a year does not look average to me. Even my phone has less than that, and that is truly being abused. I was expecting 5% after 1 year but it loos twice as fast.
I'd guess it was below average, but deg is not linear. It tends to drop the most in the first 6 months, then the curve flattens, so while 6% seems a lot, it may flatten.
 
Completely average. As per teslafi
/rant on

If 6% degradation is considered "perfectly average" after little more than half year for the best electric car in the world then, sorry to say this but it is still not the time for electric cars.
Since Tesla is advertising one thing and deliver trash to the end-users they are nothing better than VW cheating their way in the pollution reports.
How am I expected to believe the battery will outlast the car if the degradation is so huge?
Why it is considered normal for people to be cheated Into buying a 614Km wltp car that is actually doing about 450km real world (if you drive like a 90 year old) and that is achieved only when the battery is brand spanking new?

/rant off

Very, very disappointed in Tesla's product.
 
I'd guess it was below average, but deg is not linear. It tends to drop the most in the first 6 months, then the curve flattens, so while 6% seems a lot, it may flatten.
Then Tesla should not advertise nor ask for money for the expected degradation of first 2-3 years. You have a car with 614km wltp when new and 550 Km wltp after about 3 years? Then you are selling a car with 550km wltp (350 km real world). And people will be satisfied because the car will deliver on the promises even after the "honeymoon" is over.
 
/rant on

If 6% degradation is considered "perfectly average" after little more than half year for the best electric car in the world then, sorry to say this but it is still not the time for electric cars.
Since Tesla is advertising one thing and deliver trash to the end-users they are nothing better than VW cheating their way in the pollution reports.
How am I expected to believe the battery will outlast the car if the degradation is so huge?
Why it is considered normal for people to be cheated Into buying a 614Km wltp car that is actually doing about 450km real world (if you drive like a 90 year old) and that is achieved only when the battery is brand spanking new?

/rant off

Very, very disappointed in Tesla's product.

i do kinda agree with this. the range is fine, its the EPA cycle which needs to change. When you buy a 3 series it doesnt use 4L/100km either.
The Model 3 has a lot more degradation than the S for some reason and there is way too much battery lottery.

30% warranty isnt really good enough as many cars wont reach this as degradation slows down but i.e. 20% range loss is very significant....
Anyway I have 16% degradation (435km range currently) after 2 years and <50k km....i am the secondlowest car on teslafi though...