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Range Loss Over Time, What Can Be Expected, Efficiency, How to Maintain Battery Health

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Thank you so much. Just your word I needed to know. Thank you. The one I am dealing with is 292 miles at 90% soc... in your opinion, this would not sound that good? The price is the same for a new model 3 LR... so I’d say there is quite the degradation on it... not a surprise because it’s at 30k-ish miles... Not a good deal?..
 
A new Mercedes model with a 100kW/h battery drove 600 miles @ 140km/h (87m/h) on freeways from Stuttgart to the south of France, and had 15% charge left after it arrived
(Mercedes Benz's new electric car drives 600 miles on just ONE charge). Yes, the car has 19 more kW hours than mine, is very light and also aerodynamic, but the discrepancy between my Telsa's range and this is noteworthy.

I have talked to two Tesla development engineers who shared that the company is not releasing all the energy available from its 81kw/h battery, for the simple reason it does not have to, because, up to now, there was no serous range competition from competitors, so they could take it easy, and be hyper-conservative in regards to preserving extra battery life through their charging recommendation (80-90% max). The competition and the impressive, more realistic real-world ranges of Porsche, VW and others is changing this.

I want more than my measly 270 miles max out of my M3P (never mind the bullshit claim of a 315 mile range), and I want it NOW.
 
A new Mercedes model with a 100kW/h battery drove 600 miles @ 140km/h (87m/h) on freeways from Stuttgart to the south of France, and had 15% charge left after it arrived
(Mercedes Benz's new electric car drives 600 miles on just ONE charge). Yes, the car is very light and also aerodynamic, but the discrepancy between Telsa's range and this is still noteworthy.

I have talked to two Tesla insiders who shared that the company is not releasing all the energy available from its 81kw/h battery, for the simple reason it does not have to, because, up to now, there was no serous range competition from competitors, so they could take it easy, and be hyper-conservative in regards to battery life and their charging recommendation (80-90% max). The competition and its impressive, more realistic real-world ranges of Porsche, VW and others is changing this.

I want more than my measly 270 miles max out of my M3P (never mind the bullshit claim of a 315 mile range), and I want it NOW.
1650049231968.jpeg
 
First of all, Mercedes does not have "a new electric car with 600 miles of range" and they probably never will.
What they do have is a concept that went 600 miles maybe once. They also have a flying car concept too:

Screenshot 2022-04-15 120508.jpg


Recall that General Motors built and demonstrated an EV concept that went 1867 miles on a single charge - in the 1980's! And of course, GM makes flying car concepts too. The point is you can make a concept car do anything you want.

The reality is that Mercedes likely won't be able to make the EV transition and will be acquired by Zhejiang Geely like most other traditional automakers. There probably will be a Geely with 600 miles and that familiar star logo someday, but Tesla will remain a few steps ahead of them for many years.
 
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First of all, Mercedes does not have "a new electric car with 600 miles of range" and they probably never will.
What they do have is a concept that went 600 miles maybe once. They also have a flying car concept too.

View attachment 794021

The reality is that Mercedes likely won't be able to make the EV transition and will be acquired by Zhejiang Geely like most other traditional automakers. There probably will be a Geely with 600 miles and that familiar star logo someday, but they'll be competing against Tesla for decades.
Yup, exactly.. the new EQS and Lucid Air cars are impressive… but they are no Tesla. Tesla is a good 10+ years ahead. Also, what the OP I think fails to realize is that the Tesla battery packs have reserved cells in the same way that a SSD has reserved space. This is used as a buffer to maintain capacity as the “effective” portion degrades over time. It’s a smart idea. 82kWh with only 75-78kWh available ensures that the pack will withstand 500,000 miles. I’m curious to see what happens with MBZ and Lucid’s tech after 500,000 miles.
 
Thank you so much. Just your word I needed to know. Thank you. The one I am dealing with is 292 miles at 90% soc... in your opinion, this would not sound that good? The price is the same for a new model 3 LR... so I’d say there is quite the degradation on it... not a surprise because it’s at 30k-ish miles... Not a good deal?..
How good of a deal it is depends on your priorities. I don't consider myself an expert, but at quick glance...292 at 90% = 324 at 100% which is about 10% degradation...which I believe is pretty typical for 30k....although calendar degradation is a bigger factor than miles normally.

Also, note the battery management system (displayed range) can be somewhat inaccurate depending on several variables.

Recommend reading through the range lost over time sticky and the how I recovered half my lost capacity sticky in the battery/charging sub-forums.
 
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A new Mercedes model with a 100kW/h battery drove 600 miles @ 140km/h (87m/h) on freeways from Stuttgart to the south of France, and had 15% charge left after it arrived
(Mercedes Benz's new electric car drives 600 miles on just ONE charge). Yes, the car has 19 more kW hours than mine, is very light and also aerodynamic, but the discrepancy between my Telsa's range and this is noteworthy.

I have talked to two Tesla development engineers who shared that the company is not releasing all the energy available from its 81kw/h battery, for the simple reason it does not have to, because, up to now, there was no serous range competition from competitors, so they could take it easy, and be hyper-conservative in regards to preserving extra battery life through their charging recommendation (80-90% max). The competition and the impressive, more realistic real-world ranges of Porsche, VW and others is changing this.

I want more than my measly 270 miles max out of my M3P (never mind the bullshit claim of a 315 mile range), and I want it NOW.

"I have talked to two Tesla development engineers" ... yeah, just like everyone else that has 'super secret insider info' that doesn't really.

The reason they have additional battery capacity is to insert a buffer for longevity of the useable claimed capacity. Not because Tesla just wanted to make a bigger battery, then disable 5kwh of storage for no reason at all.

And also, you can buy roughly 3 of your cars for the cost of what one of those will cost according to "multiple inside development engineers" I met by typing in "EQXX cost" on google search.
 
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So how long did the EQXX take to charge after the 600 mile drive? Who can make it 750 miles fastest?
Did they use any kind of HVAC during the drive or did they bundle up? Huge amounts of energy in an EV go to HVAC.
Did they try and open the rear doors? (hint: they did not, they are not functional on this vehicle)
How much grip do those prototype ultra low rolling resistance tires have vs your M3P?
Does the car pass all federal crash and other safety regulations?

FYI, someone has driven a production Model 3 600+ miles on a single charge before as well.
 
I have talked to two Tesla development engineers who shared that the company is not releasing all the energy available from its 81kw/h battery, for the simple reason it does not have to, because, up to now, there was no serous range competition from competitors, so they could take it easy, and be hyper-conservative in regards to preserving extra battery life through their charging recommendation (80-90% max).
I would much prefer a conservative approach to battery management. A new pack is $15,000 and I don't want to pay that. I also don't want resale value to reflect any significant risk of that being necessary. Meanwhile the range is fine. If you want more on your M3P you can put low rolling resistance tires on it and get another ~20 miles, and aero wheels from fast wheels for another 5-10 miles on top of that. If they made it customer choice that is a reasonable compromise but it would still affect resale values, since buyers can't know if you have abused the battery.
 
4 weeks today to my M3LR. So far I have had to charge my Tesla thrice. I will need to charge it again today. Is it ok to Fast Charge every time I need to charge my car? Is there a recommendation about how many times one should supercharge the batteries? Any downside to it? I live in an apartment community and the Charging Stations available charge at the rate of 15mi/hr.
 
Is it ok to Fast Charge every time I need to charge my car?
Any charge that is less than 300 miles per hour (aka 1 hour to go from 0% to 100%) is not a fast charge and basically puts no wear on the batteries. Only supercharging can do this.

Is there a recommendation about how many times one should supercharge the batteries? Any downside to it?
Yes, there is some very slight statistical downside, you can search around for some analysis. But it shouldn't stop you from using the car or charging it when needed. A worse case is likely letting the car sit around at 100% for a long time- so it's both supercharging and from just how low to how high you charge also.
 
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Those responses are all fine and well, but explain this to me:
Why does Telsa give a range of 315 miles, if it is absolutely impossible to achieve this, unless you enter and win a hypermiling contest?

What is the point of deliberately disappointing the customer after the sale is made? A driving style to achieve a 315 mile dream range would not be tolerated by 99% of customers (steady 45mph without acceleration, HVAC off, special tires, other reasonable amenities denied).

Why can Porsche achieve its claimed range in the real world, and Tesla continues to play games?

Such a wonderful car with so much innovation and pleasurable driving experience pissing away customer goodwill with deliberate misinformation...
Trusting the promise a manufacturer makes matters.
 
Why can Porsche achieve its claimed range in the real world, and Tesla continues to play games?
The Porsche that advertises about 200 miles of range?
Are you saying Tesla customers would be happier if the car didn't change at all but the advertised range was 200?

The reason is obvious: Marketing. Tesla has never had an issue at all taking customer money and disappointing after the sale. See autonomy timelines, service quality, parts availibility....

But it never seems to hurt Tesla, so why would they stop?
And why would Porsche change, when they can sell as many cars as they can make to the Porsche loyalists no matter what the range is?

Overpromise and underdeliver made Elon the richest person on the planet. We're not exactly teaching the right lessons.
 
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How good of a deal it is depends on your priorities. I don't consider myself an expert, but at quick glance...292 at 90% = 324 at 100% which is about 10% degradation...which I believe is pretty typical for 30k....although calendar degradation is a bigger factor than miles normally.

Also, note the battery management system (displayed range) can be somewhat inaccurate depending on several variables.

Recommend reading through the range lost over time sticky and the how I recovered half my lost capacity sticky in the battery/charging sub-forums.
Thank you very much sir
 
I have talked to two Tesla development engineers who shared that the company is not releasing all the energy available from its 81kw/h battery, for the simple reason it does not have to, because, up to now, there was no serous range competition from competitors, so they could take it easy, and be hyper-conservative in regards to preserving extra battery life through their charging recommendation (80-90% max). The competition and the impressive, more realistic real-world ranges of Porsche, VW and others is changing this.

You’re refering to the 21-22 M3P with the 82kWh battery, right?

Tesla doesnt really use any extra margins. At full charge, the battery is 100% charged, that 4.20V/cell and it is the branch standard for 100% SOC in lithium ion batteries.

At the bottom, Tesla have about 4.5% of the total energy put below 0% on the screen battery SOC indicator.
Those 4.5% can be used, to they arent saved or protected for anything at all.
If you use the energy below the car will shut down to protect the lithium battery and whne this happens, there is not much energy left at all in the battery. The shut down is to protect the battery from dipping too low in voltage.

There are other ev car makers with a top buffer, which can be seen on the voltage per cell not reaching 4.20V/cell when the 100% SOC is reached.

I have good data about 4.20V/cell at 100%SOC and also that the voltage at very low load was about 3.1V/cell at 0% on the screen, which should be 4.5% true SOC(due to the buffer).
This example is not a tesla/panasonic 2170L cell, But a model S equivalent. Not that big differences when it comes to the voltage curve.
At 3.1V/cell there is not more than the 4.5% capacity left.
C2764784-CE05-4ADD-9862-BD4CFA909037.jpeg
 
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Thank you for the convincing technical explanantion of total battery capacity.

So seems like I was fooled by the Tesla engineers (probably the same clowns who hysterically cheered, like the second coning of Christ, when Elon introduced the Red Roadster's 1000km range from the stage...
 
A new Mercedes model with a 100kW/h battery drove 600 miles @ 140km/h (87m/h) on freeways from Stuttgart to the south of France, and had 15% charge left after it arrived
(Mercedes Benz's new electric car drives 600 miles on just ONE charge). Yes, the car has 19 more kW hours than mine, is very light and also aerodynamic, but the discrepancy between my Telsa's range and this is noteworthy.

I have talked to two Tesla development engineers who shared that the company is not releasing all the energy available from its 81kw/h battery, for the simple reason it does not have to, because, up to now, there was no serous range competition from competitors, so they could take it easy, and be hyper-conservative in regards to preserving extra battery life through their charging recommendation (80-90% max). The competition and the impressive, more realistic real-world ranges of Porsche, VW and others is changing this.

I want more than my measly 270 miles max out of my M3P (never mind the bullshit claim of a 315 mile range), and I want it NOW.
It's great that other mfrs are trying to push the envelope, but the devil is in the details, right?

One, the EQXX did not average 140km/h. The trip took 11h32m, so it averaged 54mph, or about 87kph. Since it didn't stop, and since it supposedly hit as high as 140kph on the autobahn, and since it averaged 54mph, then it had to have driven at speeds lower than 50mph for long stretches. Woohoo! That's the optimal speed for the Tesla to maximize range! Hyperkilometerers rejoice!

Two, you want to compare your M3P to a vehicle with prototype low rolling resistance tires in 185/65R20 size with a 97T load rating? Are you even allowed to drive on the autobahn with T-rated tires?

Three, the motor has a peak output of 180kW. IE 240 horsepower. Yay! Gonna put your M3P to shame!

Four, if you put the trip into ABRP, from Sindelfingen to Port de Cassis, with a waypoint in Genoa, since that's the route they took, you can drive a Model 3, or a Model S, and drive at the speed limit, and stop to charge, and still BEAT the EQXX to Cassis, with 40minutes to spare.

As I said at the top, it's always great that other mfrs are trying to push technology, but this was all about lowering weight and rolling resistance and drag. There's no real new tech here. I watched the video of the drive, and it never looked like it was going faster than 60mph, so I went and read the press release, that's how I found out it took 11h32m or 54mph for the trip.

The point is, if you have a great charging network with super fast chargers at conveniently spaced distances, it doesn't really matter how far your battery can go, once you pass a minimum range of say 300+. The defining distance becomes the size of your bladder. I can't drive 600miles without stopping. I have to stop at least 3 times. And, that's exactly what ABRP recommends for optimal trip time, 3 stops. I'm sorry your M3P only as 270miles of range, but this Summer, I drove from Maine to Colorado and back, 4400 miles, and the longest leg ABRP rec'd was 173 miles. For road trips the fastest way to drive is not to try to stretch legs, but to drive fast, stop often, and use the bottom 2/3rds of the battery.
 
Those responses are all fine and well, but explain this to me:
Why does Telsa give a range of 315 miles, if it is absolutely impossible to achieve this, unless you enter and win a hypermiling contest?

What is the point of deliberately disappointing the customer after the sale is made? A driving style to achieve a 315 mile dream range would not be tolerated by 99% of customers (steady 45mph without acceleration, HVAC off, special tires, other reasonable amenities denied).

Why can Porsche achieve its claimed range in the real world, and Tesla continues to play games?

Such a wonderful car with so much innovation and pleasurable driving experience pissing away customer goodwill with deliberate misinformation...
Trusting the promise a manufacturer makes matters.
The ABRP app can check your car's efficiency at 65mph. Mine is 241Wh/mile. I think that works out to exactly the EPA rating. I don't drive as slow as 65mph on the highway, since I don't care about the rated miles. I'm only thinking about how to get where I'm going as fast and safely as possible, so my consumption is higher; but if I did go as slow as 65mph, I think I could get the EPA-rated range.
IMG_3676.jpeg
 
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It's great that other mfrs are trying to push the envelope, but the devil is in the details, right?

One, the EQXX did not average 140km/h. The trip took 11h32m, so it averaged 54mph, or about 87kph. Since it didn't stop, and since it supposedly hit as high as 140kph on the autobahn, and since it averaged 54mph, then it had to have driven at speeds lower than 50mph for long stretches. Woohoo! That's the optimal speed for the Tesla to maximize range! Hyperkilometerers rejoice!

Two, you want to compare your M3P to a vehicle with prototype low rolling resistance tires in 185/65R20 size with a 97T load rating? Are you even allowed to drive on the autobahn with T-rated tires?

Three, the motor has a peak output of 180kW. IE 240 horsepower. Yay! Gonna put your M3P to shame!

Four, if you put the trip into ABRP, from Sindelfingen to Port de Cassis, with a waypoint in Genoa, since that's the route they took, you can drive a Model 3, or a Model S, and drive at the speed limit, and stop to charge, and still BEAT the EQXX to Cassis, with 40minutes to spare.

As I said at the top, it's always great that other mfrs are trying to push technology, but this was all about lowering weight and rolling resistance and drag. There's no real new tech here. I watched the video of the drive, and it never looked like it was going faster than 60mph, so I went and read the press release, that's how I found out it took 11h32m or 54mph for the trip.

The point is, if you have a great charging network with super fast chargers at conveniently spaced distances, it doesn't really matter how far your battery can go, once you pass a minimum range of say 300+. The defining distance becomes the size of your bladder. I can't drive 600miles without stopping. I have to stop at least 3 times. And, that's exactly what ABRP recommends for optimal trip time, 3 stops. I'm sorry your M3P only as 270miles of range, but this Summer, I drove from Maine to Colorado and back, 4400 miles, and the longest leg ABRP rec'd was 173 miles. For road trips the fastest way to drive is not to try to stretch legs, but to drive fast, stop often, and use the bottom 2/3rds of the battery.
Superb response. Thank you. I will now sleep soundly again, knowing that they are ALL liers and mileage cheats!
 
So I recently charged my 2018 Model 3 Performance with 23k miles to 92%. I let it sleep for a whole day to see if I could trigger a rebalance of my battery. Right now the car shows 60% since last charge and I used a total of 16 kWh. If My calculations are correct, I would have only 50 kwh in my pack at 100%. Is that right?