Range Loss Over Time, What Can Be Expected, Efficiency, How to Maintain Battery Health

[Earl]

What’s the longest you’ve driven on a full charge at Highway speed? LR 3 is rated at 310 miles, but ABRP says I’m going to be going from 90% to 13% over a 176 mile leg of my trip. That puts real range more like 230 miles

200 to 230 miles per charge is about the optimum for speed due to Supercharging taper at higher SoC. Unless you particularly like the location where you're charging (like a good meal or hike, for example), if you're trying to get somewhere, you'll get there faster if you leave when the charging speed gets below about 200 mph and you have enough charge to make it to the next Supercharger. The 310 mile range really only affects your first charge of a day, assuming you were on a level 2 and could charge to 100% overnight.

 

[Candleflame]

i seem to have hit some sort of range recalibration event a few days ago. i woke my car after the usual 3h sleep for an OVC reading but rather than the usual +1 or 2% i quite often see i actually lost 5% of range suggesting the BMS might have realized the battery is actually more empty than it really is.

Since then it does the usual +1 or +2% after a recharge bigger than 10% but my range has come up a bit. probably from 450 to 455km. Im deliberately keeping my battery between my usual storage of 50-75% to see what the BMS is doing next few days and will do a 100% charge in 2 weeks when im going on another road trip.

I got the 4.15 software update today too but it looks my range went already up from 450 to 454km.

 

[Panther1]

My new 2021 long range 2021.4.15 updated filled to 90%= 317 miles, I drive 45 miles down to 262 miles, overnight parked in garage 248 miles. Is this normal? I do drive fast with aggressive accelerations.

 

[Gasaraki]

Yes, driving faster than the speed limit, hard accelerations, high winds, cold temperatures, rain, sentry mode, etc, etc will cut in to your range.

I personally don't use the battery mileage because that is NEVER accurate so it does me no good. I use percentage and then use the trip computer for range estimates. The trip computer is very good.

 

[Hugh-SG]

Most reports I have read suggest if you follow the 20-80 charging cycle rule, you should see 5% degradation in the 1st 50k miles and another 5% over the next 100k miles for a total of 10% degradation after 150k miles.

Below is a link to an August 2018 article from Clean Technica that I have found to be fairly accurate and the info in it applies across all EV's.

I currently have 4% degradation after 66,000 km with 305 km range at 80% and having 79km remaining at 20%
That gives me 226km range on Flat land for my MX in summer.

Interpolating the table in the article I did the math and at 6,000 of the 80-20 cycles x 226km per charge I should see 1,3million km before my MX battery has degraded to 85 % of the 414km OEM. Have a read, do the math. Oh and I supercharge All the time as I have Free SC for life.

The Secret Life Of An EV Battery - CleanTechnica

I've heard detractors gleefully declaring that anyone buying an EV will find that their EV battery will be defunct within a couple of years.

cleantechnica.com

Hope this helps you out.

Cheers, Hugh-SG

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

you should see 5% degradation in the 1st 50k miles and another 5% over the next 100k miles for a total of 10% degradation after 150k miles.

However, individual owners results may vary.

I currently have 4% degradation after 66,000 km with 305 km range at 80% and having 79km remaining at 20%

Did you happen to use ScanMyTesla to look at your capacity when your car was new? Or do you have some links to Model S/X owners who have done this and tracked their capacity over time? It's hard to say just looking at the rated miles whether that will directly correspond to capacity loss, due to a potential top buffer, etc. (Some of these things change over time too.)

my MX

It's an open question how the degradation of Model X compares to Model 3, the vehicle that is the subject of this thread.

Here's some representative (????) Model X TeslaFi data (just a few samples, but at least there is not as much selection bias, probably), showing about 3% after 40k miles :

TeslaFi - Battery Degradation Reports (upload your data) Model X

[There is a similar thread in Model 3 area. My son has a model 3 and has lower range than most so I've spent a lot of time around this topic and the TeslaFI tool testing and providing orig enhancement request and suggestions along the way.] TeslaFI recently created a new (beta) Battery report...

teslamotorsclub.com

There are many, many examples in this thread of owners who have seen 10-15% capacity loss on their Model 3s in a couple years, in near optimal use scenarios (not excessive heat, not excessive cycling, etc.).

We clearly get a biased sample here, on the low side, so it's far from clear to me how things are going fleet wide, but if you look at the TeslaFi fleet data for Model 3, which is likely less biased (I can't find a link here but if you search around you can probably find a plot), I think it's also a bit optimistic to expect 5% capacity loss only in the first 50k miles - pretty sure the plots show more than that, with probably something like 290 rated miles average showing at 50k miles, 6.5%+ (but there's another complication here - not sure TeslaFi categorizes vehicles by their constant, so lumping all Model 3 AWD together will yield bad data, since the constant changed in 2020). There are probably some Model 3 owners who will see 5% at 50k miles, but I would guess that it is considerably less than half (also depends on vehicle age of course).

I don't use TeslaFi so I can't run all the reports, but it would be nice if someone eventually got some good data and actually made this comparison AND also took into account any differences in how Tesla manages the top buffer on Model S/X (it's unknown to me how this is handled on S/X, though I'm pretty familiar with how Model 3 works - it really doesn't have much of one, if any).

SMT captures would be nice! I know @scottf200 has a bit of knowledge on this and has a Model X and has SMT. He may have/know:
1) captures from early in vehicle life,
2) how the nominal full pack compared to Full Pack When New value, when new,
3) when range loss started showing (at what kWh?),
4) what the vehicle constant is (in other words what does Tesla view as a "new" pack; multiply constant by the EPA rated range)
5) etc.

But in any case the TLDR is that Model 3 and Model X are probably quite different when it comes to capacity loss over time.

 

[DougWantsALeaf]

I think Bjorn's 2 M3 LR data points of 8% after 2 years is spot on. Miles/cycles matter a little less than age.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

I think Bjorn's 2 M3 LR data points of 8% after 2 years is spot on. Miles/cycles matter a little less than age.

Yeah, seems about the average I would guess. Were his datapoints from SMT or is he just taking the ratio of the miles (because that could make it more like 9-10% if he is at 285 miles (92% of 310))? It’s a little unclear exactly how that worked, but anyway that 8% is in the ballpark.

 

[Candleflame]

However, individual owners results may vary.



Did you happen to use ScanMyTesla to look at your capacity when your car was new? Or do you have some links to Model S/X owners who have done this and tracked their capacity over time? It's hard to say just looking at the rated miles whether that will directly correspond to capacity loss, due to a potential top buffer, etc. (Some of these things change over time too.)


It's an open question how the degradation of Model X compares to Model 3, the vehicle that is the subject of this thread.

Here's some representative (????) Model X TeslaFi data (just a few samples, but at least there is not as much selection bias, probably), showing about 3% after 40k miles :

TeslaFi - Battery Degradation Reports (upload your data) Model X

[There is a similar thread in Model 3 area. My son has a model 3 and has lower range than most so I've spent a lot of time around this topic and the TeslaFI tool testing and providing orig enhancement request and suggestions along the way.] TeslaFI recently created a new (beta) Battery report...

teslamotorsclub.com

There are many, many examples in this thread of owners who have seen 10-15% capacity loss on their Model 3s in a couple years, in near optimal use scenarios (not excessive heat, not excessive cycling, etc.).

We clearly get a biased sample here, on the low side, so it's far from clear to me how things are going fleet wide, but if you look at the TeslaFi fleet data for Model 3, which is likely less biased (I can't find a link here but if you search around you can probably find a plot), I think it's also a bit optimistic to expect 5% capacity loss only in the first 50k miles - pretty sure the plots show more than that, with probably something like 290 rated miles average showing at 50k miles, 6.5%+ (but there's another complication here - not sure TeslaFi categorizes vehicles by their constant, so lumping all Model 3 AWD together will yield bad data, since the constant changed in 2020). There are probably some Model 3 owners who will see 5% at 50k miles, but I would guess that it is considerably less than half (also depends on vehicle age of course).

I don't use TeslaFi so I can't run all the reports, but it would be nice if someone eventually got some good data and actually made this comparison AND also took into account any differences in how Tesla manages the top buffer on Model S/X (it's unknown to me how this is handled on S/X, though I'm pretty familiar with how Model 3 works - it really doesn't have much of one, if any).

SMT captures would be nice! I know @scottf200 has a bit of knowledge on this and has a Model X and has SMT. He may have/know:
1) captures from early in vehicle life,
2) how the nominal full pack compared to Full Pack When New value, when new,
3) when range loss started showing (at what kWh?),
4) what the vehicle constant is (in other words what does Tesla view as a "new" pack; multiply constant by the EPA rated range)
5) etc.

But in any case the TLDR is that Model 3 and Model X are probably quite different when it comes to capacity loss over time.

i finally got teslafi up and running and got 69.4kwh at 78% SOC, cell imbalance 6mv currently but i still seem to be in this odd recalibration phase where the car changes SOC% after charging and sleeping quite a bit so next couple of weeks there might be some changes after the 100% charge so would be interesting to see if this number changes. Clearly my BMS is slightly confused atm but im deliberately avoiding high SOC until sunday next week to see whats happening.

As for teslafi, fleet averages for the 2019-2021 performance are 482km at 10k km, 473km at 20k km 469km at 30k km, and 469km at 35k km. ( delivery is 499km)

It looks like the graph steadily falls to 470km and then essentially levels off. If there is anyone here with a high milage model 3 i might send you an invite/referal link to Teslafi for a 2 week trial so you could then take a picture of the fleet degradation curve? (You can only see as far as your own odometer)

edit: they have a new function to compare to only certain model years presumably to look at time based degradation too in the next few years when they have enough data. the graph is much the same.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

the 2019-2021 performance

( delivery is 499km)

This is a little confusing. Since the range of all of these cars is different depending on if they are stealth or not, and the model year. They have starting ranges of 310 (2019), 322 (2020), 304 (2020), 299 (2020), and 315 (2021).

Also the 2021 uses a different battery.

So any plot combining these vehicles would be hopelessly obfuscated. Can you narrow it to your model year only?

edit: they have a new function to compare to only certain model years

Can you use this feature to do a plot for just your model year, and what is the average for that? You said much the same...how much different?

 

[ratsbew]

How does Tesla go about making sure that all cars on their lot have a healthy battery and that they don't sit too long outside of a healthy range? Do they have some sort of centralized monitoring that flags cars that need attention?

 

[jelloslug]

Unless the car is a 0%, the battery is not going to be damaged while it sits.

 

[KenC]

How does Tesla go about making sure that all cars on their lot have a healthy battery and that they don't sit too long outside of a healthy range? Do they have some sort of centralized monitoring that flags cars that need attention?

I doubt they do all that much. My 3 was home delivered in Winter with ZERO SOC. The driver said he loaded it that way. I was the last delivery of the day. We met at a rest stop since he couldn't get his semi down my dirt road, only to find that the rest stop had no chargers. We reloaded my 3 to take it 10 miles away to a supercharger. I had to push it to get it back on the truck, that's how low it was. Here's a couple pics, reloading and charging from zero:

 

[Candleflame]

This is a little confusing. Since the range of all of these cars is different depending on if they are stealth or not, and the model year. They have starting ranges of 310 (2019), 322 (2020), 304 (2020), 299 (2020), and 315 (2021).

Also the 2021 uses a different battery.

So any plot combining these vehicles would be hopelessly obfuscated. Can you narrow it to your model year only?




Can you use this feature to do a plot for just your model year, and what is the average for that? You said much the same...how much different?

no its not. in australia we never got the awd initially. the stealth performance was our awd 2019 for the first 2 months with optional performance upgrade for the usual gizmos.. afaik our WD only ever had the 310 miles of range. Anyway the stealth performance has a performance vin but as it has 18 inch tires gets treated as always havign 499km range or 310 miles. nevermind that i posted a teslafi reading so you can see how many kwh out of the 77.8kwh i have left.

 

[Candleflame]

I doubt they do all that much. My 3 was home delivered in Winter with ZERO SOC. The driver said he loaded it that way. I was the last delivery of the day. We met at a rest stop since he couldn't get his semi down my dirt road, only to find that the rest stop had no chargers. We reloaded my 3 to take it 10 miles away to a supercharger. I had to push it to get it back on the truck, that's how low it was. Here's a couple pics, reloading and charging from zero:View attachment 654283
View attachment 654284

i remember you posting this age ago. i would have refused delivery. However as we all sort of know these days SOC or DC vs AC charging and storage SOC dont seem to matter much with the 3 anyway and its essentially just 5% in year 1, 10% in year 2 and then maybe another 5% over the next 10 years.

 

[Phlier]

no its not. in australia we never got the awd initially.

As good as @AlanSubie4Life is, I don't think it's quite fair to expect him to have all of the configurations for each model year for each country memorized. Maybe cut him a little slack, eh? He's done quite a bit to help everyone out that has ever asked, and you're coming across as.... well, to be quite honest.. .kind of a jerk.

"Lighten up, Francis!" Bonus points if you can name the movie....

No offense intended, Candleflame, I do enjoy your posts, but sheesh.... maybe just a bit of decorum?

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

no its not.

posted a teslafi reading so you can see how many kwh out of the 77.8kwh i have left

I think you misunderstood me. Your reading is all legit, and I think close to what we calculated above too!:

If your car displayed 450rkm at 100% SoC (this is what you said, but you also said you calculated 70kWh (I presume at 100% SoC) which would be 460rkm at 100%), you have 68.5kWh battery capacity left ( you started with somewhere between 76kWh and 77.8kWh, most likely close to 77.8kWh).

This is what we calculated previously, but note you have more than 450rkm now so the calculation is ~1kWh low.

I just mean that any TeslaFi plot not normalized to capacity (meaning combining model years past 2019) is not valid. For the reasons stated.
I’m actually a bit surprised TeslaFi hasn’t sorted this all out since they have everything they need to convert everything to kWh in their plots. Then they can combine the data (and normalize to starting capacity if they wish).

Pretty straightforward stuff.

In 2019 in the US the performance and the AWD both had 499km...just as I said above. And it sounds like the same value applied in Australia - just as I said. Am I missing something? I absolutely never said or implied that the AWD and the Performance had anything other than 499km rated range in 2019.

 

[Candleflame]

As good as @AlanSubie4Life is, I don't think it's quite fair to expect him to have all of the configurations for each model year for each country memorized. Maybe cut him a little slack, eh? He's done quite a bit to help everyone out that has ever asked, and you're coming across as.... well, to be quite honest.. .kind of a jerk.

"Lighten up, Francis!" Bonus points if you can name the movie....

No offense intended, Candleflame, I do enjoy your posts, but sheesh.... maybe just a bit of decorum?

it was not meant to be offensive. afaik even in the usa the stealth performance always just has 310 miles. i dont think theres a 2020 stealth available.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

o. i would have refused delivery.

Meanwhile two years later @KenC still has 310 rated miles, or very close to it. Lol.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

i dont think theres a 2020 stealth available.

There is. All three 18”, 19”, and 20” Performance were sold in the US as 2020 models and they all had different ranges as I listed.

If there is ever any question you can go to the EPA website fueleconomy.gov and look it up. Everything is there.