Range Loss Over Time, What Can Be Expected, Efficiency, How to Maintain Battery Health

[KenC]

Totally not related to Tesla, but just as a data point, my 4.5 year old Chevy Spark EV is approaching 40% capacity loss. It’s quite low mileage too (22.5k miles). It’s down to substantially less than 12kWh capacity, from its start around 18.5kWh. Warranty replacement is 40% loss, so we will see. Have 3.5 years to go. I like my chances. Lol. As long as it doesn’t catch on fire in my garage and immolate my Performance Model 3 I’ll be happy. Need to install a networked smoke detector in there.

Interesting. In the Volt forums, it was generally accepted that the buffer Chevy used was quite large, since there was so little apparent degradation. Interesting that the Spark would not be similar.

 

[apacheguy]

August 2018 build (LR RWD) with 37 K miles.

100% = 300 rated miles
70-71 kWh capacity calculated using the energy app method

Usually charge to 70%. Vary rarely charge to 100%. Degradation seems a bit steep.

 

[minis2003]

looking to see what other people are getting for WH/MI when they are driving there M3
for me

2019 M3D
lifetime = 276 wh/mi
rim = 19"
tire = Continental Procontact RX

A/C is always on

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Interesting. In the Volt forums, it was generally accepted that the buffer Chevy used was quite large, since there was so little apparent degradation. Interesting that the Spark would not be similar.

Last I’ll say on this...since this is about Tesla after all, but occasionally nice to see comparisons....

I ran my Spark out of energy today, half a mile from my house. Had to have a friend drag me home with a tow rope! I was trying to run it down, but there were smarter ways (like using climate control...). Live and learn.

Anyway, no buffer. It’s a quite abrupt loss of energy. Plenty of warnings - but when it is done it is done. The early Sparks may have had a large top buffer, but the 2015/2016 had just a 19kWh LG pack rather than the earlier 21kWh packs. No bottom buffer at all.

11.3kWh from the battery, to dead. When the car was new it had about 18.6kWh (nominally it is a 19kWh battery). Will need to start investigating a warranty replacement! It is a 40% degradation, 8-year 100k-mile warranty, I think. Car has 22.5k miles. 4.5 years old. And about 40% capacity loss - might need a little more to qualify.

We’ll see if the GOM says something different after a full charge. Maybe it lost balance or something. But I doubt it.

My Tesla is doing a lot better at 12% loss! Maybe Teslas are actually the best. Of course, with similar mileage, the Tesla has only ~1/4 the cycles, and it also doesn’t sit at 100% for 14 straight months like the Spark has.

 

[djessemd]

I bought my 2020 model 3 Dual motor LR 7/10/2020 it said I could get 310 miles @ 100% charge. I drive the freeway in California I now have 24,000 miles and if I set charging to 100% I only can get 286 miles. I asked the service department if there was something and they we’re able to over the Internet tell me that since I drive 80 miles per hour on the freeway that’s what is expected of the batteries.

 

[apacheguy]

I bought my 2020 model 3 Dual motor LR 7/10/2020 it said I could get 310 miles @ 100% charge. I drive the freeway in California I now have 24,000 miles and if I set charging to 100% I only can get 286 miles. I asked the service department if there was something and they we’re able to over the Internet tell me that since I drive 80 miles per hour on the freeway that’s what is expected of the batteries.

driving habits have no effect on rated range. It is interesting to see Tesla perpetuating this myth.

 

[Candleflame]

driving habits have no effect on rated range. It is interesting to see Tesla perpetuating this myth.

Most techs have no clue about the software.

 

[MarcG]

Plus, there’s actually no way to get 286 actual miles of range when driving at 80mph. More like 240, if you’re lucky and have tailwind on a warm day. But who drives 3 hours straight without stopping anyway? My bladder would not be very happy!

 

[sambowder]

I have a 2019 with 17,000 on it. At 100% I am maxxed out at 273 miles for a range. Is that normal?

 

[Jejunjm]

looking to see what other people are getting for WH/MI when they are driving there M3
for me

2019 M3D
lifetime = 276 wh/mi
rim = 19"
tire = Continental Procontact RX

A/C is always on

1300 miles had the car for a month and I live in Arizona...
2021 m3 lr

lifetime = 227 w/mi

rim = 18 stock w aero

tires whatever stock is

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

I have a 2019 with 17,000 on it. At 100% I am maxxed out at 273 miles for a range. Is that normal?

It's a little below normal, but the estimate may also be a couple % off. Seems very likely you have at least 10% capacity loss though - but that's not that unusual for a two-year-old vehicle. Plenty of people in the low 280s for a vehicle of that age and approximate mileage. You live in a bit of a warm place which might bias you towards a somewhat lower than average result depending on the storage conditions of the vehicle, your use patterns, etc. There's also an element of luck of the draw.

You'll likely lose range at a much slower rate in the next couple years; I'd say it's pretty likely you'll be above 260 miles in early 2023. Guess you'll see!

 

[Candleflame]

Plus, there’s actually no way to get 286 actual miles of range when driving at 80mph. More like 240, if you’re lucky and have tailwind on a warm day. But who drives 3 hours straight without stopping anyway? My bladder would not be very happy!

I do all the time. Tbh the first stop is at 4 hours which is the hardest in the morning if you had energy drink hehe. Its not that i dont want to havea leak but the first DC fast charger is in 4 hours so I just have to make do haha.

 

[dhrivnak]

The car started out with 309 miles some 38 months and 58,000 miles ago. Basically I charge to 90% and about 4 times a year when on a trip I will charge to full if needed.

 

[Candleflame]

The car started out with 309 miles some 38 months and 58,000 miles ago. Basically I charge to 90% and about 4 times a year when on a trip I will charge to full if needed.

you are one of those lucky ones.

 

[dhrivnak]

you are one of those lucky ones.

Maybe, but there is also a possibility that I do not charge to 80% or less, thus not giving the battery a chance to balance. And that I do charge to full and run to near empty so the BMS can calibrate, and no third party apps that often seem to drain the battery.

 

[MarcG]

Maybe, but there is also a possibility that I do not charge to 80% or less, thus not giving the battery a chance to balance. And that I do charge to full and run to near empty so the BMS can calibrate, and no third party apps that often seem to drain the battery.

What’s your lifetime averse consumption (in Wh/mile) and how often do you supercharge?

 

[Jeff N]

Interesting. In the Volt forums, it was generally accepted that the buffer Chevy used was quite large, since there was so little apparent degradation. Interesting that the Spark would not be similar.

The Volt initially used a SOC range of around 20% to 85% although they widened that a bit in later model years to something more like 15% to 90%. During prototyping they were even talking about using as little as 50% of the pack capacity.

The reason for this was that they needed to pull a relatively large amount of power (111 kW) from a relatively small battery (initially around 16 kWh) in order to support full EV operation without starting the gas engine. So, they used somewhat power-centric cells and otherwise treated the pack gently with ample top and bottom buffering and careful thermal control. The Spark EV was a smaller and lighter car (800 pounds less) with a modestly larger pack so they allowed access to nearly all of its capacity in order to give it acceptable range since it didn’t have a gas engine to extend its range.

 

[dhrivnak]

What’s your lifetime averse consumption (in Wh/mile) and how often do you supercharge?

We take about 10 trips a year typically with 3 SuperCharge visits a trip, So about 100 sessions. And my average watts/mile is around 250 watts/mile. Better on the MX4 tires and a little worse on the Cross Climate tires.

 

[scottf200]

Aside:

... and no third party apps that often seem to drain the battery.

TeslaFI . COM has options to let it sleep. My kids car has sleep 9 hrs yesterday and 11 so far today as an example (ie. 20+ hrs in a row so far).

 

[KenC]

Maybe, but there is also a possibility that I do not charge to 80% or less, thus not giving the battery a chance to balance. And that I do charge to full and run to near empty so the BMS can calibrate, and no third party apps that often seem to drain the battery.

And the only thing I've learned in over 100 pages of these discussions is that there's no real rhyme or reason to why a battery seems to do well or not.

My approach may be 100% opposite of yours, and I've got zero estimated degradation. For daily use, I only charge up to 60%, and on trips, higher, up to 80% or 90%, as needed. I've kept it at 90% for a few days to balance, once. I don't do any full to near-empty calibrations. And, I have a lot of 3rd-party apps running, Stats, EV Watch, AutoMate, Watch for Tesla, ABRP.

Here's Stats from about 2000 miles to 16,000 miles, and 29 months. Stats data was seasonal until January, ~14k miles, when the developer, FINALLY, used the SOC api that took temps into account, like the car does. From 14k on out, the trend should be even more consistent:

Here's a closeup after the developer switched SOC api, back in January. As you can see, a fairly even distributor between 307miles and 312+miles. The average is a hair under 310 miles.

Since I'm keeping the SOC around 60%, it's no surprise that the range estimates fluctuate in a 5 mile band. Since SOC is rounded to 1% increments, ie ~3 miles, divide by 0.6 and you get 5 miles.