If battery temperature drops below 10C it will be warmed while charging or pre heating. Much below that (5C or maybe colder) it'll spend most of the energy warming the battery first before charging the battery. I usually charge at 32A so don't know if since 48A is higher it gets limited at a higher temperature (supercharging is limited up to quite a high battery temperature).
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Winter charging issues, frozen charge ports, road trips
- Thread starter glhs272
- Start date
If battery temperature drops below 10C it will be warmed while charging or pre heating. Much below that (5C or maybe colder) it'll spend most of the energy warming the battery first before charging the battery. I usually charge at 32A so don't know if since 48A is higher it gets limited at a higher temperature (supercharging is limited up to quite a high battery temperature).
Bobbo8
Member
Last winter I had the bright idea to get the M3 car washed the night before I took a long trip when the windchill wound up to be -4 degrees. At the first SC it would not accept the power cord. Long story short the M3 port was frozen.. After hours it finally worked. BUT found out later if I had a “hand warmer” pack I could have put against the port and it would have unfrozen it. I now carry hand warmers in winter.
What do you do? Just place one in the actual charge port? Heck if the charger won’t work not like it will shock you lol
Bobbo8
Member
Open the charge door and place it at the connector, it will warm the area.
EVs are not ready for winter road trips.
Between the low winter time efficiency and slower supercharging, I’m extremely unhappy with how much extra time my trips are taking.
After driving at 80 miles an hour for 2 hours, I got to an empty supercharger in my LR RWD at ~15% SOC. Preconditioning started about 40 miles before arrival. Max charge rate was 118 kW, and was under 100kW by the time I was at 40%. It’s 150 kW station. Took my 35 minutes to get 200 rated miles back on (130 actual winter highway miles). it was a bit rainy so higher consumption. But geez! Adds 3 hours to a 600 miles drive when you add in extra drive off the highway, plugging in, charging, etc.
Anyways, knew it’ll be bad in the winter but experiencing a cold wet long drive with slower rate of charge to add on to the high power consumption just adds insult to injury.
/rant
Between the low winter time efficiency and slower supercharging, I’m extremely unhappy with how much extra time my trips are taking.
After driving at 80 miles an hour for 2 hours, I got to an empty supercharger in my LR RWD at ~15% SOC. Preconditioning started about 40 miles before arrival. Max charge rate was 118 kW, and was under 100kW by the time I was at 40%. It’s 150 kW station. Took my 35 minutes to get 200 rated miles back on (130 actual winter highway miles). it was a bit rainy so higher consumption. But geez! Adds 3 hours to a 600 miles drive when you add in extra drive off the highway, plugging in, charging, etc.
Anyways, knew it’ll be bad in the winter but experiencing a cold wet long drive with slower rate of charge to add on to the high power consumption just adds insult to injury.
/rant
eprosenx
Active Member
Yup. EV’s are different from ICE vehicles. They have a lot of advantages, and some downsides. You have found one of the downsides.
But your use case is not a super common one. Not that many people drive those 600 mile stints in one day in such harsh conditions. And of course driving 80 really does not help since consumption is an exponential function of speed.
Did you start with a 100% charge and did you pre heat the car while still plugged in?
Then using the seat heaters and setting the cabin heat a little bit lower instead will reduce energy consumption. Driving a little slower will help too.
Then hitting the supercharger while the car is still warm is the right move as well. Make sure to set the supercharger as the destination so it pre-heats the battery as needed.
And only take onboard enough energy to get to your next supercharger (plus a buffer) since charging slows at over 50% battery capacity.
Make sure you have proper air pressure in your tires as well.
Other than that, yeah, this is a limitation of EV’s. It is just a fact. The only solution is to get a longer range EV or one with lower consumption per mile.
At that speed your energy usage is probably 50% greater than at 65mph. And you stated it was rainy. So that is definitely an unsafe speed in those conditions, in the winter.
All EVs take more time to complete long trips like the 600 mile trip you did, which would not even be possible to do in a single day in a non-Tesla because no other EV has anything like the Supercharger network.
Relax and embrace the journey.
They work quite well for me in winter. I just expect a 30% range drop and life is good.
If driving at 80 mph, you should also be expecting a 25% drop from the speed.
If you don't fight it, it works a lot better.
And going at least 10 mph over the speed limit on wet and rainy winter roads.....
Sometimes you need to think like a strategist for an auto racing team. There are times when they can go slower on the track and win by cutting out a pit stop. Same applies to driving an EV. I can just make a round trip from where I live to Boise without charging if the wind is calm and the weather warm. In more marginal conditions if I drive 70 instead of 80 on the highway, I get home faster by avoiding the 10 minutes to top off at the supercharger (plus the extra 5 minutes out of my way to get to it). If you play with your trip planning you may also find places where you can drive a little slower and skip a charging stop.
Yeah, I charge to full at home before leaving for road trips and yeah driving 10 mph slower will conserve battery. I’m just pointing out that EVs road tripping while possible in the winter, it’s not entirely practical for long trips when considering the extra time wasted. I think once v3 charging is universal, it’ll be better but for now 30plus minutes to get 130-150 miles of effective winter time range is a bit too much
Hello everyone!
First post as I couldn't find my answer in existing threads. I am concerned with my battery and or power consumption as I am only able to go ~146 miles on a fully charged (100% to 0%) battery per my test this week. I charge the car to 100% and then drove it down to 5% and only went 138.4 miles using 52 kWh (see image link). Based on this, the remaining 5% battery would have got me to ~146 miles which is only 45% of the 322 mile range. The projected battery power is also only 54.7kWh instead of 75kWh (see spreadsheet image link).
I am a mechanical engineer with a basic understanding of the system-- I realize that I live in Massachusetts and the low temperatures during the winter are going to impact the range quite a bit but I wasn't expecting a 55% reduction in range from 322!
Does this seem normal? I am a fairly aggressive driver but for this test I was purposely driving slow, I couldn't get much lower than 377 Wh/mi without disruption traffic on the Mass Turnpike.
I love everything else about the car but this is a bit frustrating. Even in the fall I couldn't touch 300 miles!
Car: 2019 model 3 with dual motors, no performance package, hub caps removed
6,142 miles as I type this post
Image links:
Imgur
Imgur
Notes:
I normally charge the car to 85% top not 100%
The tire pressure light is on because 1 tire is 1psi low
I drive the car everyday to work
lowest temp this week was 28F high was 61F
Thank you in advance for any input!
First post as I couldn't find my answer in existing threads. I am concerned with my battery and or power consumption as I am only able to go ~146 miles on a fully charged (100% to 0%) battery per my test this week. I charge the car to 100% and then drove it down to 5% and only went 138.4 miles using 52 kWh (see image link). Based on this, the remaining 5% battery would have got me to ~146 miles which is only 45% of the 322 mile range. The projected battery power is also only 54.7kWh instead of 75kWh (see spreadsheet image link).
I am a mechanical engineer with a basic understanding of the system-- I realize that I live in Massachusetts and the low temperatures during the winter are going to impact the range quite a bit but I wasn't expecting a 55% reduction in range from 322!
Does this seem normal? I am a fairly aggressive driver but for this test I was purposely driving slow, I couldn't get much lower than 377 Wh/mi without disruption traffic on the Mass Turnpike.
I love everything else about the car but this is a bit frustrating. Even in the fall I couldn't touch 300 miles!
Car: 2019 model 3 with dual motors, no performance package, hub caps removed
6,142 miles as I type this post
Image links:
Imgur
Imgur
Notes:
I normally charge the car to 85% top not 100%
The tire pressure light is on because 1 tire is 1psi low
I drive the car everyday to work
lowest temp this week was 28F high was 61F
Thank you in advance for any input!
AlanSubie4Life
Efficiency Obsessed Member
The quick answer is that you aren't measuring your car's range, and your range is likely normal.
This was not a continuous drive so the remaining ~15kWh was lost while sitting, either due to just general vampire drain, or feature drain (Sentry, Smart Summon Standby Mode, preheating the car, etc.). These losses are not included on any of the trip meters. Those meters only show use when you are not in Park.
As described above, you can't do it this way unless you have done a single continuous drive.
Note also that the snowflake means that your available energy is reduced so that may introduce some error in that 54.7kWh calculation.
For the record, the correct description of the units here (kWh) is energy, not power.
I'd recommend making sure you have Summon disabled or at least Summon Standby mode disabled. And don't use Sentry mode unless you need to (if you want to preserve your energy for some reason).
You should expect to use about 1kWh of energy per day due to normal vampire drain, and this will not show on the meter.
At max, the most you will likely see on the meter for a single continuous (no parking) 100% to 0% discharge (assuming your 100% is currently 310 rated miles) is about 72kWh. However, that result would imply your battery has a total usable capacity of about 76-77kWh. (The reasons are described elsewhere but that's the way it works.)
What range you get from that 72kWh of course will depend on how you use it. If you average 377Wh/mi, you'll travel about 191 miles. If you average 234Wh/mi, you'll travel 308 miles.
This was not a continuous drive so the remaining ~15kWh was lost while sitting, either due to just general vampire drain, or feature drain (Sentry, Smart Summon Standby Mode, preheating the car, etc.). These losses are not included on any of the trip meters. Those meters only show use when you are not in Park.
As described above, you can't do it this way unless you have done a single continuous drive.
Note also that the snowflake means that your available energy is reduced so that may introduce some error in that 54.7kWh calculation.
For the record, the correct description of the units here (kWh) is energy, not power.
I'd recommend making sure you have Summon disabled or at least Summon Standby mode disabled. And don't use Sentry mode unless you need to (if you want to preserve your energy for some reason).
You should expect to use about 1kWh of energy per day due to normal vampire drain, and this will not show on the meter.
At max, the most you will likely see on the meter for a single continuous (no parking) 100% to 0% discharge (assuming your 100% is currently 310 rated miles) is about 72kWh. However, that result would imply your battery has a total usable capacity of about 76-77kWh. (The reasons are described elsewhere but that's the way it works.)
What range you get from that 72kWh of course will depend on how you use it. If you average 377Wh/mi, you'll travel about 191 miles. If you average 234Wh/mi, you'll travel 308 miles.
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@AlanSubie4Life Thank you very much for your input and clarifications
It looks like the biggest issue is that the car consumed 15 kWh of energy over 3 days (5 kWh/day) instead of the expected 1 kWh/day. I do not currently have sentry mode or summons enabled. I will repeat the experiment with continuous driving to see how much of a difference I see.
Thanks Again!
AlanSubie4Life
Efficiency Obsessed Member
@AlanSubie4Life Thank you very much for your input and clarifications
It looks like the biggest issue is that the car consumed 15 kWh of energy over 3 days (5 kWh/day) instead of the expected 1 kWh/day. I do not currently have sentry mode or summons enabled. I will repeat the experiment with continuous driving to see how much of a difference I see.
Thanks Again!
I have no experience with extremely cold weather, so can't quantify additional consumption that may be due to battery conditioning, but that could be a contributor to additional true vampire drain.
Remember also that prewarming the car (when you're not in it - or when you're in it) goes into this accounting for missing kWh. ANY use while in Park is not counted, whether you're sitting in the driver's seat with the heat on in Park, or whether you activate the heating remotely.
Basically you have to turn off climate control in super cold weather prior to leaving the car, and turn it on again only after putting into Drive, to get an accurate gauge. Just 10 minutes of sitting in Park in extremely cold weather with the climate on (with it set to 68 degrees or whatever, doesn't really matter if the car is freezing) over the course of 3 days could use over 1kWh of energy (7kW * 10 minutes * 1hr/60min = 1.2kWh).
If you leave the climate on when you're cleaning the car, it's not uncommon to burn 3-4kWh just by leaving the doors open, in cold weather. The point is that these losses add up, so if you care, take steps to minimize them.
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Your answer is right there. Usage of 377 Wh/Mi. the car also does not measure usage spent not driving, and using the heater (which you almost assuredly were doing) drives up usage.
Nothing wrong with your car at all. Turn the heater down, use seat heaters, slow down, and it will go down. ICE cars have similar usage, with the exception of the heater. EVs dont have a bunch of waste heat to pump in the cablin like ICE cars do.
Nothing wrong with your car at all, you just have high usage.
@jjrandorin Thank you.
You are correct I was using the heater--I'm just surprised how much of a factor it is.
I guess I was expecting the impact to be more like A/C use in a ICE car. The engine drives the A/C compressor but this is pretty much negligible in terms of energy use/range reduction (or at least nothing compared to what I am seeing in the model 3).
Thanks again for your input-- very helpful
377Wh/mile is not out of the norm for winter. Your efficiency can go down anywhere from 20 to 50% depending upon the temp, your tires, the road conditions, whether you use heat, etc.
The capacity is more concerning. Apparently, it's due to phantom or vampire drain, 15kWh/3 days. Is that out of the norm? It's possible to lose 1.3miles of range/hr. In 24hrs, you could lose 18 miles of range or 54 miles in 3 days. How much is 54 miles? That's 17%. You need to check all of your settings to make sure your car is sleeping, etc., and not staying awake and draining.
The capacity is more concerning. Apparently, it's due to phantom or vampire drain, 15kWh/3 days. Is that out of the norm? It's possible to lose 1.3miles of range/hr. In 24hrs, you could lose 18 miles of range or 54 miles in 3 days. How much is 54 miles? That's 17%. You need to check all of your settings to make sure your car is sleeping, etc., and not staying awake and draining.
AC usage has a pretty similar impact to an ICE car as it does in a Tesla. The problem is that you get heating for essentially free in an ICE car, whereas in a Tesla it costs energy. That accounts for the majority of the delta, really.
Other facts that add to this:
- Denser air
- Generally higher rate of rain/snow (which decreases range)
- Battery conditioning (i.e. heating)
- Lower tire pressure (from people who don't reinflate their tires in the winter)
You should warm up the car before you drive off by turning on the heater inside AND setting the car so it will top off the battery before you leave for work. When the car charges the battery, it warms the battery at the same time plus your heater drawing energy should help heat it up before you drive off.
You should keep your heat at 68 and use your seat warmers, they are more efficient.
You should keep your heat at 68 and use your seat warmers, they are more efficient.
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