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McLaren P1

Discussion in 'Electric Vehicles' started by ipdamages, Mar 4, 2013.

  1. ipdamages

    ipdamages Roadster Sports 835 & 972

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  2. sp4rk

    sp4rk Banned

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    Sorry I cannot share your enthusiasm ... nor your physical issue. :)

    1) It's an ICE, which here on out bores (to put it mildly) me.
    2) Their marketing / merchandising budget you par for you in the cost of the car ... including a showroom in Knightsbridge, London (Bowater House as it was called) ... an uber expensive junction.
    3) It can only be driven in certain European areas where you can do > 100mph. And then you pay 20+% VAT on top. Even if I was a billionaire, I would not buy one.
     
  3. ipdamages

    ipdamages Roadster Sports 835 & 972

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    No, it is a hybrid (with a very small all-electric range).

    Geneva motor show 2013: McLaren P1 - Telegraph

    "The P1 has a hybrid powertrain; the petrol engine is a 3.8-litre, twin-turbocharged mid-mounted unit that develops 727bhp. A 176bhp electric motor is directly mounted to the petrol engine, to give a combined output of 903bhp."

    As for you not digging it, as my friend Ian puts it, that's why there are 31 flavors. But congrats on the delivery of your S. Looking forward to seeing your wrap. :)
     
  4. vfx

    vfx Well-Known Member

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    Enjoy it for now.

    Elon has this car in his sights.
     
  5. ipdamages

    ipdamages Roadster Sports 835 & 972

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    One thing I have learned is that when Elon sets his mind to something, something impressive usually follows. And that causes me to expect a jaw-dropper in this regard. I also expect something game-changing in Gen 3. Like a car of small to medium size with attractive looks, decent acceleration/performance, and range of about the same as the Roadster. All at a reasonable price.

    As for Elon looking to take on the Veyron/918/P1/Koenigegg, I think that EVs are not well suited for racing or this segment. The battery overheats, which kills performance, and the battery loses charge very quickly at high power output, which is a problem given the slow recharge rate. Add to that the high center of gravity of the Roadster and it all adds up to a difficult challenge to overcome.

    I have not driven a Model S, but obviously the skateboard design seems to largely address my third point (which design to this point seems fantastic - though it remains to be seen whether there are problems with having the battery so close to the ground). But I'm not sure if having a lot of weight that sits low is better than having a slightly high COG but substantially less weight. I'm sure it's all a matter of how much you are trading off. That said, I can vouch for the significant difference in handling of my Roadster Sport compared to my Elise, as well as the difference between the low-end torque of the two cars. The two cars are SO different in each of these ways. Both very difficult for ingress/egress, though!
     
  6. TEG

    TEG TMC Moderator

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    Low CoG is great. Model S handles amazingly well for such a large/heavy vehicle.
    The Roadster redone with a flat pack underneath would be an improvement.
    I don't think there is a downside to doing it that way.
    Obviously they would need to tune the suspension differently to take into account the different weight distribution.

    To me, the biggest "downside" to an EV trying to compete as an ultimate top speed supercar is the relative lack of energy storage. The range at 200MPH is going to be too short with today's storage density for EVs.

    Also, the broad/flat torque curve and relatively even efficiency means that an EV can use a single speed gearbox with no shifting. That improves the driving experience, helps with reliability and keeps things simple. Gearing EVs for ~130MPH top speed makes sense to me.
    If you want to go to supercar speeds then some sort of variable ratio gearbox would likely be required and would add more weight and complexity.

    I say don't worry about the Autobahn challenge... Just make something that has the best 0-60 anywhere, and still remains a completely reasonable daily driver. ("More efficient than a Prius" as well.)
     
  7. ipdamages

    ipdamages Roadster Sports 835 & 972

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    I of course like the idea of a Roadster with a flat/skateboard pack, but it seems to me that is such a monumental change for the car, given the use of the Elise chassis. So you would just raise everything 5" (and pick up a bunch of storage space)? That would basically require you to raise the windshield 5" if you want to have the same leg room. I'm doubtful of any retrofit possibility. From scratch, I'm more confident.

    I agree with the rest of your points, TEG, and especially the prioritization of criteria. 2.6 0-60, attractive, handles well, electric, 250 ideal mile range-mode range, for a price under $400K. Game on.
     
  8. TEG

    TEG TMC Moderator

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    I wasn't suggesting retrofitting existing Roadsters. I was talking about next gen Roadster. I don't think they would want to do the vertical pack again.
    That was just a manifestation of the space they had available in the re-purposed Elise chassis.

    By the way, P1 seems to use a vertical pack:
    04-mclaren-p1-628.jpg

    In a next gen Roadster, pack under the floor would likely mean a slightly higher off of the ground driving position, which I consider a good thing when trying to see around cars in front of you in traffic. But the super low-flat looks cool, so the stylists might actually prefer not to have a floor pack raise the height of the vehicle.

    It seems the P1 styling is all about downforce. They probably want to claim title to fastest lap times by way of a car that glues itself to the road. Doing that has to hurt efficiency, so I don't think Tesla likely wants to try to outdo them on that regard either. (Or maybe they could use a ducted electric fan to create a vacuum under the vehicle. Hmm... Maybe a win/win if they blew all that air over the pack and motor to keep it cool when driving hard.)
     
  9. vfx

    vfx Well-Known Member

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    I had an Tesla engineer tell me Elon does not care about top speed.

    To continue with the "Elon impresses" thinking, I'm guessing around $200K.
     
  10. brianman

    brianman Burrito Founder

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    I hope doubling and tripling of current energy storage happens before my eyes go bad. The game gets really interesting at that point.
     
  11. ipdamages

    ipdamages Roadster Sports 835 & 972

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    If they can do that they may have found a car that would actually convince me to drive some car besides my Roadster as my daily driver.

    And I agree, brianman, on the effect of improved battery storage. I'm not confident of that happening any time soon, but I don't need that to happen to get me on board.
     
  12. hcsharp

    hcsharp Active Member

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    This is also evident in the extreme braking required of track cars. Batteries cannot regen at a high enough C rate to handle the energy that turns rotors red hot. I think 200 mph speeds are less of problem than energy lost to frequent hard braking. Everybody dismisses supercapacitors because they can't store much energy for their size and weight. But they might help solve the braking problem for EV track cars. They can store energy extremely fast - at tens of thousands of amps which can then be released to the motor and battery slowly before the next curve. Just dreaming of possibilities...

    The P1 is a fun car... Not the same hi-tech excitement that EVs provide at a fraction of the noise and pollution.
     
  13. brianman

    brianman Burrito Founder

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    It could also add a helluva "nitrous" effect coming out of the turn, letting the supercap discharge quickly.
     
  14. vfx

    vfx Well-Known Member

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    The only thing we can "count on" is that battery improvements have steadily increased by %8 per year since 1999. Every 10 years is a doubling.

    Elon has pretty much said he knows this trajectory is on track for the Genlll.
     
  15. TEG

    TEG TMC Moderator

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  16. ipdamages

    ipdamages Roadster Sports 835 & 972

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    I think that even modest improvements are extremely valuable, so if we can get doubling or tripling that will be fantastic. But in some situations we see the law of diminishing marginal returns, and it wouldn't surprise me if that were the case here. For example, Nissan and BMW and Audi seem to have had a hard time finding those increases and are stuck with cars with less than 100-mile range, which devalues their cars and makes them role players with limited potential. They are spending like crazy and their companies' futures are on the line, yet they can eke out little.

    Or there are the limits we see in mileage increases in ICEs. Surely they arent doubling every 10 years.

    But I'm not a scientist, and Tesla has done what others could not. On the other hand, building a business model on technology improvements that don't exist is scary.
     
  17. vfx

    vfx Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, Elon seemed to know the near-years improvements that are on the table now and would be coming that will help the Bluegenlll but beyond that, who knows?
     
  18. TEG

    TEG TMC Moderator

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    There are so many stories of energy storage breakthroughs in the labs just waiting to get mass production sorted out.
    I have to think the future will have something much better in store for us.
    Tesla probably wants to use super-capacitor storage once it becomes a viable replacement for lithium ion cells.
     
  19. Discoducky

    Discoducky Active Member

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  20. ipdamages

    ipdamages Roadster Sports 835 & 972

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    Impressive that McLaren has brought the car to market in what appears to be a short amount of time (though I'm sure a lot happened before we first heard about the car). As I have elsewhere posted, I hope that the next gen Roadster is more P1 than M3.
     

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