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Merits of Conversions

Discussion in 'Electric Vehicles' started by JRP3, Nov 29, 2010.

  1. JRP3

    JRP3 Hyperactive Member

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    That was my point. All the hoopla for a conversion. Dave Kois at Powered By DC has been doing these for a while. 100 mile range and keeps the 4WD and roof rack too I think. They should have had him do one.
     
  2. qwk

    qwk Model S P2681

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    The difference is performance. I really doubt it even comes close to the Tesla drivetrain.
    If one wants a boring rav4, then there are used 1st gen rav4 ev's, which will more than suit your needs.
     
  3. JRP3

    JRP3 Hyperactive Member

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    I really doubt the new RAV4EV is going to have Roadster like performance, it's not a sports car. It's the wrong vehicle, the wrong market, and not worth the extra expense. It's also going to have a smaller battery pack and range than the Roadster. In the presentation they even said similar performance to the RAV4 V6. They've been pretty vague about what Tesla is actually doing beyond the battery pack. Frankly there is no real reason to have Tesla involved in this project other than branding. Since they already did a RAV4EV 10 years ago I'm sure they could do another one with lithium on their own. Hell I could do it with the resources of Toyota behind me, and keep the 4 wheel drive.
     
  4. qwk

    qwk Model S P2681

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    I didn't mean roadster like performance. The V6 rav4 has a 0-60 time of 7 seconds and a 15 second qtr mile time. The original toyota rav4 ev has a 0-60 time of 18 seconds. Huge difference.

    I would bet money that 99% of conversions (not just rav4) don't even come close to the Tesla rav4 performance, let alone the roadsters.
     
  5. stopcrazypp

    stopcrazypp Well-Known Member

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    The RAV4 V6 is actually a fairly high performance SUV/CUV. It can run the quarter mile in the high 14 second range, 0-60 in slightly more than 6 seconds, 269hp (more than the standard Roadster, a bit less than the Sport). Nothing to be ashamed of and Tesla/Toyota probably would need something like the Roadster's motor to achieve that kind of performance in an SUV.
     
  6. JRP3

    JRP3 Hyperactive Member

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    I would bet that 99% of conversions cost a lot less than the new RAV4EV will too, and I can promise you they didn't have the resources of Toyota behind them. I'd also bet that 99% of RAV4 V6 drivers have never used the full out 0-60 time of their vehicle either so it's an odd metric to pursue for that vehicle. Besides Tesla doesn't have the only performance capable system out there.
     
  7. qwk

    qwk Model S P2681

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    You can't compare the cost of a conversion to a new car. Unless you start with a NEW car(which very few do), most still end up with a cobbled together mess.
    The conversions that you can compare cost just as much or more, with no warranty to boot.

    ACP is about the only decent performing conversion company out there, besides going fully custom. That is $$$$ though.
     
  8. JRP3

    JRP3 Hyperactive Member

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    Actually most conversions are fairly well done and perform as designed, though usually range limited by budget. Again, they don't have the resources and volume buying power of a large automaker. As yet we don't know what the new RAV4 is going to cost so it's rather difficult to compare costs. I doubt it's going to be in the LEAF range. Regardless, my point is that Toyota already built a RAV4EV over 10 years ago on their own, I'm sure they could have done it again. So the question is why didn't they? Probably to generate some press for this initial run of conversions it was more cost effective to have Telsa do it considering their existing relationship than to start from scratch in house. With no EV program Toyota was looking as if it was falling behind in technology.
     
  9. qwk

    qwk Model S P2681

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    I totally agree. I have browsed the DIYforum and was not at all impressed. The reason is most people are cheap, as well as the high cost of batteries, which makes them skimp out elsewhere.

    The Tesla rav4 is not going to be priced anywhere near the Leaf. That is a given. On the other hand it is 10x the car the leaf is.(Not only looks)

    Although Toyota has experience in building EV's, and the 1st gen rav4 has many followers, it is a far cry from Tesla's technology. 18 seconds 0-60? A geo metro 3 cylinder runs that in a quarter mile for petes sake.

    Any big auto manufacturer cas the ability and funds to make a great EV. They just have no interest or intent to.
     
  10. JRP3

    JRP3 Hyperactive Member

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    Don't know if cheap is the right word for working with what you have. Fact is many of the DIY types realize that a vehicle doesn't need extreme 0-60 times and 100+ miles of range to be an effective practical vehicle.
    By what metric? They seem to be aiming for similar range as the LEAF, it won't hold any more passengers than the LEAF, and all reports say the LEAF is quiet, comfortable, has good build quality, and has reasonable pickup. The only thing the RAV4EV will have over the LEAF is 0-60 times, which is not what people buy a RAV4 for. Given a choice most people would probably drop a few seconds from the 0-60 time if they could pick up 10-20 miles of range anyway.
    You seem obsessed with 0-60 times when that's not the main concern of the RAV4 target market. No one who's driven the old RAV4EV has complained about it's acceleration that I'm aware of, because they don't really care that much. I'm sure any newer version would beat that anyway with a lighter lithium pack. You have this false impression that only Tesla knows how to make an EV go fast. It's not about the motor or the inverter it's about sizing the proper battery pack. Remember, the Roadster gets blown away by an old Datsun with series DC motors. If Toyota were coming out with a sports car or high performance sedan then I can see "Powered By Tesla" making sense. For an electric soccer mom mobile, very similar to the LEAF, not so much.
     
  11. JRP3

    JRP3 Hyperactive Member

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    I think I made a pretty good guess earlier:
    Like it or not the LEAF has put Nissan way out in front with consumer perception of green automakers where Toyota once held that spot with the Prius.
     
  12. qwk

    qwk Model S P2681

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    #12 qwk, Dec 3, 2010
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2010
    Since when is 0-60 in 7 seconds extreme. lol

    Obesessed with 0-60 times. Hardly. I have a 9 second street car in the garage that could be daily driven but just sits because I'm sick of ICE cars. On the other side of the coin I have daily driven a geo metro 3 cyl for the past 6 years(100k miles). While it got great gas mileage it was boring to drive and often scary on the interstate because it couldn't get out of it's own way.Similar to a 1st gen Rav4.

    The roadster gets as good as or even better kwh/mi than the leaf when driven like a grandma, so you are not sacrificing range by getting a quicker ev.

    You are right, people are not going to buy the rav4 for the 0-60 times, but for the same price do you think anyone would choose Toyota's version of the Rav4 over Tesla's? Didn't think so.

    Comparing white zombie to the roadster is just silly. It's kind of like a redneck in a backyard built $5k camaro that just smoked a ferrari asking about the price of the ferrari before driving back home to his single wide.

    BTW Tesla isn't the only one who can pake performance ev's, it's just that no one else has stepped up to the plate.
     
  13. JRP3

    JRP3 Hyperactive Member

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    So you think Tesla won't charge a premium for their performance parts and expertise? To paraphrase your example that's like having Ferrari develop a power train for a RAV4 and not charging more for it. My point is Toyota would be better off putting extra money into range than into performance for the RAV.
    I think the Zombie would cost more than $40K to recreate.
     
  14. qwk

    qwk Model S P2681

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    I really doubt tesla's version of the rav4 will be more money than toyota's.
    Didn't toyota's cost around 45k?

    Yes, better range would be super, but for some reason everyone except tesla is dead set on 100 miles.

    I don't understand your last statement. I know he has got way more than 40k in the car.
     
  15. JRP3

    JRP3 Hyperactive Member

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    I think the original was around $45K, but that was 10 years ago and actual component costs are lower today. I'm not sure how the new one will sell if it's got the same range as a LEAF and costs $45K. I don't know if enough people will pay the extra $12K for better 0-60 times.
    I wasn't including all the incremental development costs that have gone into the Zombie, and I did say over $40K. I think it could be copied for around that.
     
  16. qwk

    qwk Model S P2681

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    While some component prices may have gone down, car prices haven't, in fact they went up. You are not just paying for 0-60 times. I'm sure one could actually tow with the new rav4 also, not to mention options like navigation etc. that you could not get in an old rav4.

    You seem to skew the facts in favor of conversions for some reason. The truth is most people would call someone crazy for sinking 20+k into an old POS car just so they can have an EV with no amenities.

    As far as white zombie, let's not kid ourselves, he has got six figures into that car.
     
  17. JRP3

    JRP3 Hyperactive Member

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    The price comparison was really to the LEAF which has navigation. The LEAF is the competition and if they can't price it close I don't see it selling.
    What am I skewing? What amenities are left out? A conversion can have the same amenities as the original vehicle.
    Maybe the racing components cost more than I realize since that's not my area, but I don't think it would take six figures to copy it.
     
  18. qwk

    qwk Model S P2681

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    Lol. The leaf is a compact car, the rav4 is an suv. How are they in the same market?

    Please show me a conversion that has the same features as teslas rav4. Maybe I'm missing something.
     
  19. JRP3

    JRP3 Hyperactive Member

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    They are both EV's, front wheel drive, similar range, similar features, same passenger seating. If you don't think people interested in an EV will be comparing the two I think you're quite mistaken. If the front wheel drive RAV4EV is an SUV then why isn't the LEAF?
    What specific features? I can show you conversions that have 4wd, which the Tesla RAV won't. Pretty major omission for an "SUV". Bells and whistles can always be added, but an SUV is based on 4wd.
     
  20. jasonhi

    jasonhi Roadster 2.5 #1135

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    It's hard to say. The real cost of developing the White Zombie has been the thousands of hours of work John, his friends, suppliers and sponsors have put in over the years learning, breaking and blowing stuff up. Much of the internals of that car are not for sale at any price... I doubt there is a single part left in the drive-train of that car that isn't specifically modified in some way to help get the White Zombie down the 1/4 mile in a real big hurry.

    John could likely build another for $30-60k (materials cost), but without his (and his connections) help, it would be an expensive and time consuming undertaking to replicate the White Zombie's performance, even for those with EV racing experience.
     

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