Million EVs by 2015... What's an EV?

[ljbad4life]

A more efficient connection, maybe, but gas engines just don't seem to be able to get over 100 miles, or 150 miles with careful driving, on a gallon of gas equivalent, like electric motors can. (I got 164 mpge on my RAV with careful driving on back country roads once)

The Volt is typical of GM, in my mind. It produces a standard truck, puts a big, heavier body on it, changes a few rubber hoses, calls it a Cadillac, and puts a badge on the sides and back "FLEX fuel", where hardly anyone ever puts E85 in it. Hype and mirrors and call it EV to cloud the issue. Sell half a million and run most of them on gas most of the time.

you do know that the average consumer/driver does not want to modify their driving habits to eek out more miles? Driving without heat/ac, driving slowly, planning their trips etc are too much for a lot of people. Hence tesla's montra of EV without compromises. The only way to get that witha BEV is a large range. 100 miles - hvac use- low/high temps = very short range. I sure wouldn't spend 30k on a car that I can't be comfortable in just to eek out the range I was quoted by the car co.

I'm not a fan of the volt (im buying a model S), but it serves it's prupose. It can greatly reduce the amount of gas somone uses even down to nothing if someone stays within it's range. At this point ev infrastucture on the east coast and mid west is severally lacking.

I live in NYC and travel to boston regularly. Do you know how many charging stations there are in nyc? 3! 3 chargers! I know you can top off with 110, but level one charging takes a large amount of time. Until charging infrastructure improves outside of cherry picked places, the volt will have it's place.

 

[Jaff]

Let's review this a year from now...over a reasonably sized sample of Volt owners...my guess is that the folks reporting data now will be the group with the higher number of electric miles...once the data has matured a bit, I doubt this will be the case...the initial plug in range is just too puny imo to bank enough electric miles.

You are probably correct in the long run - but the initial buyers are volt enthusiasts - and many of them have driven hundreds of miles without using gas.

There would also be those who don't really know their own needs and will buy a Volt "just in case" they need to drive long distance.

BTW, most Volt owners report higher than 100 mpg (effective) - so easily 2/3rd of the driving will be in EV mode.

 

[vfx]

Gas in the US will pass $4/gal this year, probably never to return to below that.

Very unlikely. We will continue to have volatile gas prices - though inexorably hitting higher highs and higher lows.

The gasoline suppliers have developed a way us giving pain, relief, and then slowly bringing back the pain to the levels we have already been used to.

Goes like this:

Gas spikes up. Then after a painful period of holding it there it rapidly drops back down (usually never to as low as it was before the spike) then it creeps back up that spike number. Then it wiggles around till the next repeating spike cycle. You can see this current creep up slowness matches the magnitude of that 2008 spike. There is no doubt that this climb will hit that peak again.

 

[Takumi]

I can't believe I'm reading this on this forum... *sigh* K.I.S.S.

FACT: Leaf uses no gas.

FACT: Volt WILL eventually use gas (gas goes bad) even if used for less than 10 miles a day. - HYBRID!!!!!

Just because we add a bigger battery in the Prius so that it can run 40 miles on battery still makes it a hybrid.

Why GM used this "marketing spin"?
-Take away negative impact of EV1. If they have an "EV" now people will forget the EV1.
-Take away Prius mpg advantage. Toyota wins if it's a hybrid.
-Gain government $$$, be it rebate or bail out.
-Steal the "green" spotlight.

Stop allowing GM to lie to you. If you let them start lying to you AFTER they just took your money, then they will just take your money again. Didn't you know HISTORY REPEATS unless you learn from it.

/rant

 

[qwk]

This is exactly how I feel. If you support GM, you are part of the problem.

After all that has happened, Gm is still lying to their customers. Very sad.

 

[Doug_G]

The gasoline suppliers have developed a way us giving pain, relief, and then slowly bringing back the pain to the levels we have already been used to.

Actually, it's out of their control. We're at peak oil, or very close to it. They can't ramp up production more to meet demand. That means prices have to go up.

When the oil production starts inevitably going down, at 3% per year or more, then the oil prices will skyrocket. The gyrations will get far worse, with big spikes followed by drop in demand followed by plunge in prices and the cycle repeats.

 

[dpeilow]

Gas spikes up. Then after a painful period of holding it there it rapidly drops back down (usually never to as low as it was before the spike) then it creeps back up that spike number. Then it wiggles around till the next repeating spike cycle. You can see this current creep up slowness matches the magnitude of that 2008 spike. There is no doubt that this climb will hit that peak again.

It already has in the UK, for about a month. It was back there before the recent VAT (sales tax) increase, which has just made it worse.

 

[richkae]

The oil equation is complex.
We *never* will run out of oil.
The higher the price goes, the more production becomes available.
There is oil in the ground that costs $10 per barrel to extract, $20, $30, $40 ... $90, $190, $290, $390...
( Of course, the $10 oil is consumed first and was probably all gone along time ago, then the $20, then the $30... )
As the price goes above $90, someone will extract the $90 oil. When it exceeds $100, someone will extract the $100 oil. Each uptick in the price brings a little more oil into the market.
As an example, there are wells that have run "dry", oil will no longer freely flow out of them but there is still oil in them that you can get out if you pump enough high pressure water into the well.
As the oil in the reservoir dimishes and gets more dilute, you have to pump more water in - and separate more water and other impurities out.
At a high enough price, you are willing to get 1% oil and 99% water back out of the well.

Why does this matter?
The oil companies aren't going to run out of oil, they are going to run out of customers. At some price threshold other energy sources completely replace the use of oil.
When that happens there will be plenty of oil in the ground, but no one will be stupid enough to pay for it.
If gasoline suddenly shot to $20 a gallon people would give up their need to think they can drive 500 miles in a day with no planning and be completely willing to live with a 100 mile range Nissan Leaf as their only vehicle ( or take bicycles, buses and trains ).
The system has 2 choices... find a different energy source that it can afford, or fail outright.

The oil companies are massively invested in how to extract and bring oil to market.
They know the clock is ticking.
They aren't planning to die, they plan to keep selling us energy in whatever form they can profit from.
Everything they do to prevent alternate energy sources from competing with oil extends the amount of time they can make money from oil.
Of course if they think they can adapt their existing investment to sell us something else ( hydrogen ) they would do that.

The price volatility is a double edged sword for them.
When the price rose too high too fast in 2008 it crippled our economy. Suddenly we bought less oil. There was several months of oil in the pipeline to the consumer and consumption sharply contracted, hammering prices. They didn't intend that - the parasite doesn't want to kill its host. The price fall also punishes the investments in extracting the high cost oil.
On the other hand it hammers the competitors to oil, probably much harder, when the price crashes like that - which is good for them and bad for us.

 

[TEG]

Great post, richkae!

And that more expensive oil will likely cause more environmental damage to extract.
Tar sands as one example.
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/member.php/785-richkae

 

[suxxer]

Stop allowing GM to lie to you. If you let them start lying to you AFTER they just took your money, then they will just take your money again. Didn't you know HISTORY REPEATS unless you learn from it.

Exactly. And stop allowing Fisker to lie to you. Combining a Li-Ion and a 2.0-litre-4-cylinder Chevy Cobalt SS Motor (notably from ...GM...) doesn't make an EV- it's still a PHEV.

The specs of the Fisker Karma S bare is all: 185 miles total range. That's 35 miles ELECTRIC and 150 miles on GAS (25 mpg).

 

[Nik]

FACT: Volt WILL eventually use gas (gas goes bad) even if used for less than 10 miles a day. - HYBRID!!!!!

In the summer, I add petrol to my LPG car at the rate of around 10 litres every 6-8 weeks, I've never noticed any probem with it going 'bad'.

 

[Jaff]

Gasoline left in a tank over a long period of time will varnish up the workings of an ICE.

Even diesel will grow bacteria and again, left over time, can gum up the works...this can be a big problem for trawler-yachts.

The period of time that I've read about is usually at least 12 months though...

 

[mattjs33]

From what I've read, the Volt will periodically run the engine if it has been in electric only mode for an extended period of time, to combat such issues. Don't know if the Karma will have the same feature.

 

[Nik]

Gasoline left in a tank over a long period of time will varnish up the workings of an ICE.
The period of time that I've read about is usually at least 12 months though...

Lovely. I'm burning a bit of petrol every day, and lots of propane, so I'll not worry about it.

Did I read somewhere that the Volt will burn a bit of petrol every now and then even if only ever driven within its electric range? - presumably that is for this sort of reason

 

[Jaff]

My understanding was yes, if it is driven with "too much spirit" (I think GM stated over 70 mph), then the ICE will "assist" the electric motor...please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

Lovely. I'm burning a bit of petrol every day, and lots of propane, so I'll not worry about it.

Did I read somewhere that the Volt will burn a bit of petrol every now and then even if only ever driven within its electric range? - presumably that is for this sort of reason

 

[donauker]

My understanding was yes, if it is driven with "too much spirit" (I think GM stated over 70 mph), then the ICE will "assist" the electric motor...please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

No that is not correct. The ICE will "assist" the electric motor only if it is already running due to the all electric range having been depleted or if it is being used to warm the battery pack due to very cold conditions.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Exactly. And stop allowing Fisker to lie to you.

Fisker never claimed their PHEV was an "electric car" though. GM is the ONLY company out there claiming their PHEV is an "electric car" and NOT a hybrid (basically saying those calling it a hybrid are wrong).

I also think there is a technical distinction between "EV" and "electric car" (although colloquially they are used interchangeably). "EV" can be describing the "EV" part of all of these terms: BEV, PHEV, HEV, FCEV. In other works, "EV" can be a term to describe any vehicle that uses electric propulsion, regardless of the input energy source. "Electric car," on the other hand, is used to describe a car with electricity as the sole input.

 

[PaulM]

No that is not correct. The ICE will "assist" the electric motor only if it is already running due to the all electric range having been depleted or if it is being used to warm the battery pack due to very cold conditions.

Correct however I did read somewhere GM state that the engine will run after x amount of months of non use to burn the gas before it becomes bad.

 

[suxxer]

I also think there is a technical distinction between "EV" and "electric car"

Maybe the correct term we're looking for is FEV (Full electriv vehicle). EV (electric vehicle) and "electric car" are interchangeably used.

Fisker never claimed their PHEV was an "electric car" though.

Latest Press Release from Fisker's Homepage:

SHANGHAI (Dec. 15, 2010) Fisker Automotive, the California manufacturer of premium electric vehicles with extended range, has partnered with the China Grand Automotive Group, the number one passenger car trader in China, to have its vehicles distributed, marketed and serviced in the region.

No word about PHEV / Hybrid.... just "with extended rage" :scared: Call it whatever you want. I call it a dishonest lie.

 

[benji4]

No word about PHEV / Hybrid.... just "with extended rage" :scared: Call it whatever you want. I call it a dishonest lie.

Is it really a lie though? When driving a Volt or Karma further than the range their batteries alone will take them, the batteries are charged using a gasoline-powered engine. The car still runs on electricity. What do you call Tesla Roadster when its batteries are charged using electricity produced from burning coal? Is the Roadster no longer a true "electric car" when it's not charged using current from 100% renewable energy sources? No, of course not; the Roadster is still an electric car wherever you get the charge from.

At the end of the day, the Volt and Karma are electric cars with the addition an onboard generator. You don't have to use the generator if you don't want to -- just never put gas in the car and only drive it with its batteries charged directly from a wall socket rather than with the onboard generator. The Roadster is very much like the other two except that it does not have any way of generating it's own electricity and it has a larger battery pack. Now personally, I like the Roadster more than the other two and that's what I bought. But it costs well over twice what the Volt costs, for example, and I know a lot of folks who do want to drive electric but can't affort the Roadster or Model S will buy Volts and almost exclusively drive them without using the generator. I'm not going to slam these people or say their cars are not really electric, because I don't think that's the point. They got a smaller battery pack, and they have the option of burning gas from time to time in order to make their own electricity when they need it.