Misleading Marketing

[evme]

List of misleading marketing claims I've noticed which most have been corrected on the website.

• 300 mile range at 55mph. Who drives that slow on the freeway?!

Who even drives as high as 55mph in the city? Pretty sure that number was based on the 2 cycle EPA test that was used at the time. The US has since updated to 5 cycle EPA test which the 265 miles is from.

• Under $500 effective monthly costs. Shady to factor in time for traffic and fill in. You shouldn't even factor in the electricity savings since you're still paying for that part of the car out of your pocket.

I think they should have included the actual number, though the savings on electricity is relevant. How much your paying for electricity is actually calculated. So there is nothing wrong there. Factoring time saved in traffic was a bit misleading which is why they removed it.

• 7 passengers. Turns out 2 seats are only limited to kids and will only last a couple years until they cant fit there. Also I heard there is no ventilation so you probably don't want to put your kids there anyway.

Pretty sure they claimed it is 5 adults + 2 kids. There is nothing misleading there.

• Highest safety rating ever by the government. Turns out Tesla calculated their own rating from the results and the government never said that.

But it is true, the car did get the highest safety rating ever. Tesla made it quite clear in the press release that the government does not rate above 5 stars or rank like that. It was clearly outlined. Notice how the NHTSA never told Tesla to take down that statement? That is because there was nothing wrong with the statement, what was wrong was some media outlets though the rating was official and reported it as such. That is what the NHTSA responded against as misleading.

• 120kw supercharging. Promised back in the summer and still not seeing it in major SC stations in the US.

I wouldn't say it is misleading, but I wonder how many 120kwh superchargers are there considering Tesla now said 135kwh are coming.

• Supercharger roll out. I know they promised a bunch of stations by the summer. I appreciate the hard work and I understand there are set backs. However, I wouldn't promise anything I'm not certain of.

How was that misleading? Sure they may have not kept their deadline exactly but they were pretty close to keeping it. I mean they promised I think 26 superchargers by end of summer and we are right now 1 month past end of summer and there are 31 superchargers live. A less than month delay in these kind of things is acceptable.

 

[stevezzzz]

I agree that the mileage claims are a joke. I have a P85. I never get close to what they claim. For example, I just went from DC to PA, a total distance of 204 miles. Charged the car in range mode to an indicated 259 miles range (version 4.5 FW). Also set car to Range setting to extend mileage. Drove with HVAC off to conserve battery. Drove at 61 mph in 55 mph areas and 69-71 mph in 65 mph areas. Used cruise control on about 85 percent of the trip to extend the mileage. Was passed by almost every other car on the road. Got to PA with just 7 miles range indicated as being left. No hard accelerations. The car never gets close to the distance range Tesla advertises.

I've achieved better than Ideal range easily, on many occasions: you just have to slow down and live life in the right lane. It's very relaxing, actually, as long as you don't mind being passed. I'm driving on 19" OEM Goodyears.

YMMV

 

[qwk]

I've achieved better than Ideal range easily, on many occasions: you just have to slow down and live life in the right lane. It's very relaxing, actually, as long as you don't mind being passed. I'm driving on 19" OEM Goodyears.

YMMV

Yep, me too. The 19" wheels make quite a difference though. A p85 with 21's uses much more energy though, so I could see both sides of the argument.

 

[brianman]

Especially when you consider that this is measured until the car stops, not until the displayed range is 0. After the display reaches 0 miles you still have 10-20 miles remaining.

This is a key point, and arguably something Tesla should address with software. When you leave your house with X rated range and travel X miles and are careful to straddle the Rated line in the UI, you reach "0" before you have travelled those X miles. This is confusing and stress-inducing, and can easily be avoided by moving the Rated line in the UI down to a more appropriate location.

- - - Updated - - -

I remember when we were waiting for the MS to be officially tested by the EPA and we were all hoping for better than 300 miles under the 2-cycle test. When it came back at 265 under a new 5-cycle I remember feeling a little disappointed.

I remember feeling relieved it wasn't a bigger penalty (like coming in at 200).

- - - Updated - - -

I've achieved better than Ideal range easily, on many occasions: you just have to slow down and live life in the right lane. It's very relaxing, actually, as long as you don't mind being passed. I'm driving on 19" OEM Goodyears.

Not sure I agree on the "relaxing" part. Sometimes you have to go about 20 below the speed limit (or more). This is hazardous and not relaxing.

 

[AmpedRealtor]

I agree that the mileage claims are a joke. I have a P85. I never get close to what they claim. For example, I just went from DC to PA, a total distance of 204 miles. Charged the car in range mode to an indicated 259 miles range (version 4.5 FW). Also set car to Range setting to extend mileage. Drove with HVAC off to conserve battery. Drove at 61 mph in 55 mph areas and 69-71 mph in 65 mph areas. Used cruise control on about 85 percent of the trip to extend the mileage. Was passed by almost every other car on the road. Got to PA with just 7 miles range indicated as being left. No hard accelerations. The car never gets close to the distance range Tesla advertises.

I have had completely the opposite experience.

I live in Arizona and regularly get ideal range based upon my driving style. I rarely go over 70 MPH - mostly drive at the limit - and typically drive about 5 MPH over the surface street limits. I don't "launch" from a stop and try to limit my acceleration from a dead stop to stay under 40 kW of energy consumption (except when entering freeways). I find that rate of acceleration to be about what I see with other vehicles on the road. I guess you could say that I drive my Model S very gently, similarly to how I used to drive my Prius. As a result, I have no issues whatsoever with range. I also use regeneration quite a bit and hardly ever use my brakes unless it's a gentle tap to get me to a full stop.

The range you get has a lot to do with your driving style, climate control settings, weather and ambient temperature. If you came to the Model S from a Prius and knowing all of the best techniques to squeak out the most range, you are getting a lot out of your Model S. If you come from an ICE vehicle and haven't yet learned how to drive your car with an eye towards efficiency, then you are not getting as much range as you should.

 

[swegman]

As noted above, when driving long distances, I try to do everything possible to extend the range of the car. I drive with the HVAC system turned OFF. I set the car to range mode, which adjusts certain parameters to extend range. I drive way slower than the other cars on the road. I do have the 21 inch wheels. As noted, I drive only a few miles over the posted speed limit, in the right lane, letting everyone pass me. And yet, I still can's get more than about 205 miles range. I even had an alignment done, with the toe adjusted.

I have been looking into doing a road trip to AZ. Tesla is somewhat discouraging me to do this, saying I should expect to have to recharge every 175 miles maximum, and that this could be problematic in NM.

I like the car, I like the company, and I do not regret buying the car. But the SC network is essential if they want the car to appeal to the mass market. As it currently stands, the range I get with the car limits where I can take it. I can stand a leisurely drive (driving slowly) when taking a long trip. I do not enjoy constantly checking how much range I have left, how much more energy I used than I expected to use, and worrying about not making it to the final destination.

BTW, if I do a range max charge (which I have done 4 times), I only get between 255 and 259 miles of indicated range, not the 265 noted above. I have only used the SC twice (in DE).

 

[ChriZ]

Thanks for the input everyone. Glad everyone is being honest here and giving their 2 cents about it. I think as fanboys we need to call this out especially when we Tesla pushes more and more cars out to new owners especially with the Gen 3. These things should be easy to understand and owners should feel good about getting exactly what they paid for without all the fine print. With that, I want to reiterate that most of my claims have already been corrected on the website or removed from the blogs. These claims were based on all the initial rollout since last year. Revisions have been made and I agree with most of the marketing material now on the site.

 

[ModelS4Taos]

120KW Supercharging no longer an issue.

I just posted a thread with evidence of 120KW charging.

 

[dirkhh]

I just posted a thread with evidence of 120KW charging.

Except that you cannot get 120kW in a 60. And that's mentioned nowhere.
And the number of people on 5.x (requirement) in an 85 (requirement) charging on one of the few upgraded superchargers (third requirement) who have seen actual 120kW while charging so far appears to be small enough that they haven't posted here... there is one mention of reaching 114kW in a post - and that refers to a comment in a video (talk about indirection...).

 

[ElSupreme]

I agree that the mileage claims are a joke. I have a P85. I never get close to what they claim. For example, I just went from DC to PA, a total distance of 204 miles. Charged the car in range mode to an indicated 259 miles range (version 4.5 FW). Also set car to Range setting to extend mileage. Drove with HVAC off to conserve battery. Drove at 61 mph in 55 mph areas and 69-71 mph in 65 mph areas. Used cruise control on about 85 percent of the trip to extend the mileage. Was passed by almost every other car on the road. Got to PA with just 7 miles range indicated as being left. No hard accelerations. The car never gets close to the distance range Tesla advertises.

But they never (not since a pricing was announced anyway) have even hinted to claim 300 miles going 70mph. 55 mph to 70mph is a 2/3 increase in aerodynamic energy expenditure, it is VERY significant change. Not to mention every single car manufacturer publishes gross overestimates of economy. It is better with the 5 cycle now, but still I bet there aren't a whole lot of people getting 20mpg (much less the 23mpg claimed) in their F-150s.

And I have been able to get 250 miles fairly easily. Sure I was driving slow (60-65) and it was warm outside but it isn't like you need skill to do it, just patience.

Now when it gets cold, their range claims become really hard to defend. Cold really does take a bite out of my battery.

As for the others.

$500/month was and still is almost complete crap. This car cost me $90k and change really. It cost about the same to operate as a $60k ICE vehicle (over 5 years), or a $35k ICE (over 10 years). So it is a 'bargain' but $500 a month is/was a pipe dream.


5+2 seems legit. The current VW Jetta doesn't have rear AC vents (it may have under front seat ones I am not sure) to the back seat. And what about cars before AC did they not have any seats? I say perfect good points only, while no glaring problems, equals acceptable.

Highest safety rating. Well they did. So perfectly acceptable. You could count it as 5.0 stars, and harder to roll over equals safest as well, without all that 5.x stars business.

120kW supercharging. Well since I don't have a SC within 300 miles even, I am pretty 'meh' about all things Supercharger. But when one goes in between ATL and Charlotte, and another get put in in Augusta, GA. I'll be loving 90kW for a while. After that I might start griping.

Well the roll out seems to be screwing Atlanta over. So I don't like or care. Until the ones near me get installed. Which is 'this winter' for Charlotte. And '2014' for Augusta. So 'meh'.

 

[AmpedRealtor]

Except that you cannot get 120kW in a 60. And that's mentioned nowhere.

Why can't you use a 120 kW supercharger with a S60? Please elaborate.

 

[Shumdit]

one of the many reasons I drive a Leaf

That's like saying you married the ugly girl because you felt like she would be less likely to leave you in the future than the homecoming queen that you had a shot with.
:biggrin:

 

[evme]

Except that you cannot get 120kW in a 60. And that's mentioned nowhere.

Tesla never said that we will ever be charged at 120kw, Tesla promised 120kw superchargers that will recharge up to 50% in 20 minutes and up to 80% in 30 minutes. But they never committed to a certain charge rate because that would be influenced by many variables beyond anyone's control. The max capacity of a charger does not mean you can take advantage of it to the maximum capacity. Your complaint is with the laws of physics, not with Tesla's statements.

Please point out where Tesla claims you will get 120kw in anything?

 

[dirkhh]

Why can't you use a 120 kW supercharger with a S60? Please elaborate.

The 60s have fewer battery cells, so the total amount of energy that the battery can absorb is smaller. Once you think it through it makes perfect sense - but it's not something that is mentioned anywhere on the web site. Right now with 4.5 we get about 75-80% of the max that the 85s get (so about 70kW). I have no indication that this will change with 5.6 and a 120kW supercharger. Physics simply says that it's unlikely (and if they give 120kW to the 60s that would mean that they are 'withholding' 150kW from the 85s).

- - - Updated - - -

Tesla never said that we will ever be charged at 120kw, Tesla promised 120kw superchargers that will recharge up to 50% in 20 minutes and up to 80% in 30 minutes. But they never committed to a certain charge rate because that would be influenced by many variables beyond anyone's control. The max capacity of a charger does not mean you can take advantage of it to the maximum capacity. Your complaint is with the laws of physics, not with Tesla's statements.

Please point out where Tesla claims you will get 120kw in anything?

Nice spin doctoring. But I think it is reasonable to assume that when Tesla claims "120kW superchargers" (like they do quite clearly on their supercharger page) that when you pay extra to get supercharging that you get the ability to charge at 120kW... right?
50% of my 60kWh is 30kWh; doing that in 20 minutes takes only 90kW which I assume we'll be able to reach with 5.x and an upgraded supercharger. So that part I believe that they will be able to deliver. The 80% in 30 minutes I am less confident about - in my experience the taper is too aggressive for that (but maybe that will change with 5.x, who knows).

 

[evme]

Nice spin doctoring. But I think it is reasonable to assume that when Tesla claims "120kW superchargers" (like they do quite clearly on their supercharger page) that when you pay extra to get supercharging that you get the ability to charge at 120kW... right?
50% of my 60kWh is 30kWh; doing that in 20 minutes takes only 90kW which I assume we'll be able to reach with 5.x and an upgraded supercharger. So that part I believe that they will be able to deliver. The 80% in 30 minutes I am less confident about - in my experience the taper is too aggressive for that (but maybe that will change with 5.x, who knows).

If you visited the supercharger page it clearly states how long it would take for you to charge. There is nothing deceptive about it, the supercharger page defines time, not rate of charge. To be honest 120kw means nothing without factoring in time and resistance. Is there any mention of guarantee of a constant 120kw rate? or even a mention of ability to charge at 120kw? All they mention is the amount of time, that is it.

I quote directly from supercharger page:

"Tesla Superchargers represent the most advanced charging technology in the world, capable of charging Model S 20x faster than most public charging stations. We will soon roll out 120 kW Superchargers, which are 33% faster than our current version and can replenish half a charge in just 20 minutes, for free. It works by delivering DC power directly to the battery using special cables that bypass onboard charging equipment."

Tell me which part of 50% charge in 20 minutes is different for 60kwh vs 85kwh?

 

[neroden]

I've achieved better than Ideal range easily, on many occasions: you just have to slow down and live life in the right lane. It's very relaxing, actually, as long as you don't mind being passed. I'm driving on 19" OEM Goodyears.

I get the EPA range (265 miles/charge) almost exactly, and I have a mix of city driving and two-lane rural roads. Unlike some people here, I actually obey the speed limit; the 19th century and 1950s roads in central NY are simply not safe to drive faster despite the fact that many people do.
(Sometimes even going the speed limit is unsafe because of poor visibility.)

The catch: I live in an *extremely* hilly area. My energy usage graph has been posted on TMC previously, and I go over the top and bottom lines on the chart several times a day as I go up and down the hills. I suspect you can easily get better than ideal range in flat country, not so much in the mountains.

- - - Updated - - -

BTW, if I do a range max charge (which I have done 4 times), I only get between 255 and 259 miles of indicated range, not the 265 noted above.

This means you have a substandard battery. That's not good. I get 265+ on a range charge, which I've done a couple of times.

 

[jerry33]

I like my car very much (and own stock in the company), but its range is limited until the SC are built out across the U.S. The car does not get what it is rated at. On long trips I have to drive it like an "old man", getting passed by everyone else on the road, driving as conservatively as possible, at fairly constant speed, with properly inflated tires and just me in the car, and I can only expect to get about 200 mile range. BTW, the battery is 6 months old and has just 6K miles on it. I would be thrilled if I got 240 miles range at a constant 70mph, as Yddgrasill stated above. I've just never seen it. As another example, the last time I drove from NY to DC, I left NY with an indicated range of 170 miles. Figured that would be sufficient to get to the Delaware SC, which was 110 miles away. By the time I got to the SC, I had only 10 miles range left.

I've never actually ran the Model S from full to empty to see what the range was. However, my average is 257 over 13,000+ miles. If you assume that there is 80,000 useable Watt-hours then the range would be about 310 miles. This includes about 4000 miles of vacation trips where speeds were from 50 to 80. (For those doing the math, it's about 1300 miles to Lincoln and back, but while I'm there I drive to Omaha a five or six times which adds about 100 miles for each trip.)

OTOH, my 2005 Prius with 109K miles consistently gets 49-51 mpg as long as I keep it user 75mph.

For 2012 my 2004 Prius averaged 69.2 mpg over 16,000+ miles.

 

[digitaltim]

With the high mileage I put on the car (32k miles in 11 months and that is with the car off the road for at least a month due to personal/business travel), I am saving around $500/month in fuel/energy cost compared to the SUV I was driving. It doesn't get me to $500/month of total cost but a damn good dent.

That said, I drive the car hard and generally only see ~200 miles of real range when charging to 100% - I want a 120 kWh battery.

I supercharge in DE twice per week back and forth to NY.

 

[brianman]

120 KW Supercharging no longer an issue

Until 5.x roll out to the masses, it's a bit early to call it.

 

[dirkhh]

If you visited the supercharger page it clearly states how long it would take for you to charge. There is nothing deceptive about it, the supercharger page defines time, not rate of charge. To be honest 120kw means nothing without factoring in time and resistance. Is there any mention of guarantee of a constant 120kw rate? or even a mention of ability to charge at 120kw? All they mention is the amount of time, that is it.

I quote directly from supercharger page:

"Tesla Superchargers represent the most advanced charging technology in the world, capable of charging Model S 20x faster than most public charging stations. We will soon roll out 120 kW Superchargers, which are 33% faster than our current version and can replenish half a charge in just 20 minutes, for free. It works by delivering DC power directly to the battery using special cables that bypass onboard charging equipment."

Tell me which part of 50% charge in 20 minutes is different for 60kwh vs 85kwh?

I find your tone and the implications in the way you phrase this offensive.
Show me where I claimed that there was a "guarantee of a constant 120kw rate". I would never claim something silly like this since at least I know that the SI unit 'watt' is a capital W.
I actually claimed that for a 60 they don't reach 120kW at all, not even briefly.

Tesla, on the other hand, claims that in 30 minutes you can get 200 miles of range. Which at roughly 300Wh/mi implies 60kWh charged in 30 minutes, or an average of... wait for it... 120kW.

I will leave you with a picture to ponder and eagerly await your condescending explanation how this applies to the owner of an S60.

Respectfully...