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Discussion: Can top end Horsepower be increased on Model 3P?

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You cannot add power on the top end to an existing M3P. if anyone could do it, ingenext would have already done it and been selling the service/product.
You can’t add power but you certainly can utilize the power that is available better. It really depends on how much of the power you are using currently.

Most people that complain about the top end power aren’t using everything that it has. I have the data to demonstrate that now.

Now you aren’t going to get Model S top end power or anything but you certainly can improve the top end well past what most people are getting with cars that aren’t setup properly.
 
You can’t add power but you certainly can utilize the power that is available better. It really depends on how much of the power you are using currently.

Most people that complain about the top end power aren’t using everything that it has. I have the data to demonstrate that now.

Now you aren’t going to get Model S top end power or anything but you certainly can improve the top end well past what most people are getting with cars that aren’t setup properly.

Again, there is ZERO you can do to configure the discharge power curve except heat up the battery. Literally ZERO, nada, nothing. And even then, it's not a linear scale. You may get more punch with a hotter battery, but that does not mean it puts out more peak power. I make the same exact peak power at 85 degrees on the pack as it does with 115 degrees. The only difference is that it ramps up quicker at 115 on the bottom end of the graph.

Once you get below 85 degrees, then power is reduced simply because that magic thing called physics that affects almost every type of battery in existence when they get cold.

This is not breaking news, it's just like all the other information on this forum that has been around for years.
 
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Again, there is ZERO you can do to configure the discharge power curve except heat up the battery. Literally ZERO, nada, nothing. And even then, it's not a linear scale. You may get more punch with a hotter battery, but that does not mean it puts out more peak power. I make the same exact peak power at 85 degrees on the pack as it does with 115 degrees. The only difference is that it ramps up quicker at 115 on the bottom end of the graph.

Once you get below 85 degrees, then power is reduced simply because that magic thing called physics that affects almost every type of battery in existence when they get cold.

This is not breaking news, it's just like all the other information on this forum that has been around for years.
You're wrong. I have all of the evidence to prove it as well. I will upload another video on it tomorrow. However, for now here are pictures showing that a 432 KW "max discharge" yields an 11.74 @ 113.8 mph 1/4 mile while a 455 KW "Max Discharge" yields an 11.45 @ 117.65 mph on the same lane of the same track and less than 1 hour apart.
81% 432 KW.PNG

11.74 quarter mile.PNG


95% 455 KW.PNG

11.45 quarter mile.PNG


Ambient Temps have almost nothing to do with battery temps. It was 100 F out when I did both of those tests. I can cool or heat the battery to any temp regardless of the ambient conditions.

100 Degrees F.jpg


And here is a dyno graph showing exactly how much HP and torque drops off as your "Max Discharge" value drops. HP isn't affected until after the peak. However, the top end HP is completely dependent on that "Max Discharge" value.
Final Dyno Graph.jpg
 
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You cannot add power on the top end to an existing M3P. if anyone could do it, ingenext would have already done it and been selling the service/product.
I don't think so. They haven't actually done anything other than hack the firmware and sell the code that Tesla created. (AWD boost and Performance options. Of course it only works on the hardware that Tesla wrote it for.)
 
You're wrong. I have all of the evidence to prove it as well. I will upload another video on it tomorrow. However, for now here are pictures showing that a 432 KW "max discharge" yields an 11.74 @ 113.8 mph 1/4 mile while a 455 KW "Max Discharge" yields an 11.45 @ 117.65 mph on the same lane of the same track and less than 1 hour apart.
I see that the charge is 10% different and the cell temp is 15.5c different. Are those the main factors affecting Max Discharge?
 
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I see that the charge is 10% different and the cell temp is 15.5c different. Are those the main factors affecting Max Discharge?
Yes, Max Discharge is a function of SOC and Cell Temp. However, Cell Temp seems to affect it the most. Here is 100% SOC with a 28.5 C "Temp mid" and only a 431 KW "Max Discharge". This scenario was accomplished with Track Mode and it would produce similar times to the 81% SOC with 432 KW "Max Discharge".

100% 431 KW.PNG


About 10 Minutes later I had this up to 99% SOC and 50.5 C with a 459 KW "Max Discharge". It ran an 11.333 @ 120.70 mph then. Only cost me 1% battery to go from super slow to a half decent time.

99% 459 KW 4.PNG


A14AE846-B34C-407B-AA15-C774EEA5E937.jpeg
 
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Yes, Max Discharge is a function of SOC and Cell Temp. However, Cell Temp seems to affect it the most. Here is 100% SOC with a 28.5 C "Temp mid" and only a 431 KW "Max Discharge". This scenario was accomplished with Track Mode and it would produce similar times to the 81% SOC with 432 KW "Max Discharge".
Cool info and graphs, thanks for all that! One last OT question, what did you do to warm up the battery in a Model 3? I thought (wrongly, obviously) that only the S models had some sort of drag racing preconditioning.
 
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Cool info and graphs, thanks for all that! One last OT question, what did you do to warm up the battery in a Model 3? I thought (wrongly, obviously) that only the S models had some sort of drag racing preconditioning.
The Model 3 Performance doesn't have any specific mode for Drag Racing. Track Mode is just about the worst thing you can do for acceleration. This is actually what I am hoping Tesla will add.

My process is that I Supercharge to 100% and the battery is usually at max temps and max discharge. Then I engage Track Mode to cool the battery off as I drive to the track. Then I charge back up to 100% at the track. Finally I preheat the battery by navigating back to the Supercharger while staging in the pits. That uses up about 1% of battery but get me close to optimal "Max Discharge" value.

I hope Tesla adds a "Drag Mode" to the Model 3 Performance that automatically heats the battery up to optimal drag racing temps regardless of any other state the car is in. That would make the process much simpler.
 
My process is that I Supercharge to 100% and the battery is usually at max temps and max discharge. Then I engage Track Mode to cool the battery off as I drive to the track. Then I charge back up to 100% at the track. Finally I preheat the battery by navigating back to the Supercharger while staging in the pits. That uses up about 1% of battery but get me close to optimal "Max Discharge" value.

Yeah, I will do that next time I'm out driving and just want a bit more punch in the top end... :rolleyes:
 
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Yeah, I will do that next time I'm out driving and just want a bit more punch in the top end... :rolleyes:
That is why it would be great if Tesla added a mode that automatically does it for us. They already have Track mode that does the opposite of what we want for straight line performance. They could easily add a mode that optimizes straight line performance if enough people asked for it.
 
You're wrong. I have all of the evidence to prove it as well. I will upload another video on it tomorrow. However, for now here are pictures showing that a 432 KW "max discharge" yields an 11.74 @ 113.8 mph 1/4 mile while a 455 KW "Max Discharge" yields an 11.45 @ 117.65 mph on the same lane of the same track and less than 1 hour apart.
View attachment 838918
View attachment 838914

View attachment 838915
View attachment 838913

Ambient Temps have almost nothing to do with battery temps. It was 100 F out when I did both of those tests. I can cool or heat the battery to any temp regardless of the ambient conditions.

View attachment 838921

And here is a dyno graph showing exactly how much HP and torque drops off as your "Max Discharge" value drops. HP isn't affected until after the peak. However, the top end HP is completely dependent on that "Max Discharge" value.




View attachment 838917
Again and again and again your data is wrong.

Here is an official offer, I will bet you $5,000, if you're willing to do the same, that if you put your car on a dyno jet or a mustang dyno with out any correction adjustments from the operator, that you will not get 600 horsepower out of your car.

Let's end this silliness of you thinking your car puts out 600 horsepower to show you that. Maybe some people actually know what they're talking about on this forum and you're kind of new around here.

And, to add in your misconstruing my post. When I talk about temperatures , I am talking about battery pack temperatures not ambient temperatures. Good grief. I don't go off of gimmicky app terms like Max discharge and kind of Max discharge. I look at data.
 
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I don't think so. They haven't actually done anything other than hack the firmware and sell the code that Tesla created. (AWD boost and Performance options. Of course it only works on the hardware that Tesla wrote it for.)
There's a reason why they have not done anything except the ghost mod. Because you literally cannot add horsepower to this car. The only thing that this mod does is trick the computer into thinking it is a performance car when it is not.
 
Again and again and again your data is wrong.

Here is an official offer, I will bet you $5,000, if you're willing to do the same, that if you put your car on a dyno jet or a mustang dyno with out any correction adjustments from the operator, that you will not get 600 horsepower out of your car.

Let's end this silliness of you thinking your car puts out 600 horsepower to show you that. Maybe some people actually know what they're talking about on this forum and you're kind of new around here.

And, to add in your misconstruing my post. When I talk about temperatures , I am talking about battery pack temperatures not ambient temperatures. Good grief. I don't go off of gimmicky app terms like Max discharge and kind of Max discharge. I look at data.
Nobody said the car has 600 wheel HP. I stated that it doesn't have 600 WHP in my last video. It is probably closer to 500 HP at the wheels. The figure the car reports is akin to Engine Horsepower in an ICE car. It is a theoretical maximum that the battery will allow. What actually gets put down to the ground is entirely different. However, that doesn't mean that the "max discharge" value is irrelevant.

The data I presented shows how actual real world power does correlate with that "max discharge" value. It is best to deal with percent differences with that field as opposed to absolute values. For instance if you decrease the "Max Discharge" value by 10% you would expect to see a decrease of 10% in wheel horsepower which my data demonstrates.

You keep saying that you "look at data" yet you never present that data? You just keep falling back to "you are new around here" so I must not know what I am talking about. I let my data do the talking for me. Everyone else can decide for themselves what they want to believe and what they don't.

The important thing here is that you keep telling people there is nothing that can be done to make the car faster. However, I went out and did it and I have the evidence to support that.

783D040F-E676-4210-811C-9BC238FE2E63.jpeg
 
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Nobody said the car has 600 wheel HP. I stated that it doesn't have 600 WHP in my last video. It is probably closer to 500 HP at the wheels. The figure the car reports is akin to Engine Horsepower in an ICE car. It is a theoretical maximum that the battery will allow. What actually gets put down to the ground is entirely different. However, that doesn't mean that the "max discharge" value is irrelevant.
Tesla does not have a drivetrain loss similar to a normal car with a transmission. So the assertion that your 625+ goes to 500 at the wheels is incorrect. These cars do not lose 20% of their power because of resistance at the differential/reducer and CV joints. I tried to explain previously that each motor hits peak power at separate times, and your app is just adding both of those peak points together for one big number, but you don't want to listen.

As for your slip, good for you, but everyone gets different times. Quite a few people are faster than that. Quite a few people are slower than that.
 
Tesla does not have a drivetrain loss similar to a normal car with a transmission. So the assertion that your 625+ goes to 500 at the wheels is incorrect. These cars do not lose 20% of their power because of resistance at the differential/reducer and CV joints. I tried to explain previously that each motor hits peak power at separate times, and your app is just adding both of those peak points together for one big number, but you don't want to listen.

As for your slip, good for you, but everyone gets different times. Quite a few people are faster than that. Quite a few people are slower than that.
I am not suggesting that the car loses 20%. The 600+ HP number is a theoretical maximum. In actuality it never comes close to that number at the battery. The max value that it reports is closer to about 440 KW for both of the motor’s real-time output. Even that number is still high but their are electrical and even mechanical losses after that.

Certainly the losses in a Tesla are less than in an ICE vehicle but they are still real and significant. My guess would be between 5%-10%.

I don’t think that the dyno tests that have been done so far actually show maximum numbers that the car is capable of. I seriously doubt they did those tests with a 459 “max discharge” value but I don’t know that as a fact.

My gut feeling on this is that if you did a full dyno run at 462 KW max discharge the car would show way more than 500 wheel horsepower. To run the times that I have run the car would need more WHP than has been indicated before. My guess is that at full potential the car is capable of about 540 WHP. I certainly would like to see someone test a fully preconditioned car on the dyno.

Just a correction on your claim that “Quite a few people are faster than that”. Actually nobody is “faster” than me on DragTimes or on Dragy. I have the fastest 1/4 mile trap speed on both of those platforms. Certainly a couple of people have lower 1/4 mile times but they didn’t have higher trap speeds.

The people with lower times all had additional interior weight reductions which helped their launches. My car was full weight other than the 18” wheels which aren’t actually that light as you have pointed out before.

I think the most important thing here is that if you did the same battery conditioning that I have done with your previous ultra light weight 18” wheels on a good 1/4 mile track even you would blow my times away. If you truly gave these things an honest try even you would see a significant improvement and probably surpass what I have done.
 
your app is just adding both of those peak points together for one big number, but you don't want to listen.
On this particular point, you are wrong. That isn’t what the app does and that isn’t what I am reporting. You really should try the app before you suggest what it does.

The app reports a maximum theoretical output that the battery can theoretically expend called “max discharge”. The highest I have seen for max discharge is 462 KW.

In addition the app reports real time KW and torque figures for both motors as you are driving. Those values are actual values that the individual motors are being sent as you accelerate.

Definitely the front motor has a different peak HP rpm than the rear motor and my graphs take that into account. My graphs combine those real time measured HP figures into one value. That value is ALWAYS lower than the peak theoretical output given in the max discharge field.
 
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Wow - How quickly that got off from the original topic. Given Tesla has more orders than production - they will be focused on production with the current model with very few tweaks - mostly software.

If you want a drag-strip Tesla - go order a Model S Plaid with the tri motor and/or gut your M3P of all the excess weight to improve the hp to weight ratio. Your M3P regardless will always be significantly slower than a tri-motor Model S Plain - doubt there will be a tri-motor plaid Model 3P ever built. More motors = more power - period. Especially for a production vehicle.