TMC is an independent, primarily volunteer organization that relies on ad revenue to cover its operating costs. Please consider whitelisting TMC on your ad blocker and becoming a Supporting Member. For more info: Support TMC

Model 3 and S failed automatic braking system stress test

Discussion in 'Model 3' started by kingbugca, Aug 7, 2018.

  1. mongo

    mongo Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 3, 2017
    Messages:
    9,158
    Location:
    Michigan
    The 3 was the best! :D
     
  2. Big Dog

    Big Dog Member

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2016
    Messages:
    785
    Location:
    Irvine, CA
    That's correct. I admit I have no idea why the Tesla design team has decided that their version of L2 means that the car will drive right into a concrete wall, by design. Regardless, the Highway Safety Institute is extremely influential with the regulators, and it will be interesting to see how Elon responds.
     
    • Like x 1
  3. chinnam3

    chinnam3 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2018
    Messages:
    278
    Location:
    Bellevue
    I agree, this is definitely an issue. Many do not know the limitations of these systems.
     
  4. chinnam3

    chinnam3 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2018
    Messages:
    278
    Location:
    Bellevue
    Yep, that is correct!! :)
     
    • Like x 1
  5. SSonnentag

    SSonnentag Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2017
    Messages:
    902
    Location:
    Arizona
    I didn't even know that TACC-OFF was an option. I guess I'm going to have to go through my settings again.
     
  6. Big Dog

    Big Dog Member

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2016
    Messages:
    785
    Location:
    Irvine, CA
  7. ℬête Noire

    ℬête Noire Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2018
    Messages:
    3,143
    Location:
    TX
    It's FUD because it's doing a serious recolouring of the underlying report. ((Thank you to the people that linked that BTW, so I don't give BI the satisfaction of clicks.))

    Alternative Headline: "Two Year Old Model S edges out Brand New Volvo" ;)
     
    • Like x 3
  8. ℬête Noire

    ℬête Noire Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2018
    Messages:
    3,143
    Location:
    TX
    You can really see that in the data table, hills are/were the bane of EAP times past.
     
  9. bro1999

    bro1999 Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2016
    Messages:
    1,845
    Location:
    Maryland
    Or more simply, "Critical Tesla news = FUD!"
     
    • Disagree x 3
    • Like x 1
  10. Krazaak

    Krazaak Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2017
    Messages:
    607
    Location:
    Charlotte, NC
    It's not being critical that makes it FUD, it's the fact that they cherry picked an erroneous part of the test for the headline that makes it FUD.

    You can argue that Tesla's emergency braking should avoid a collision, it probably should. But the fact is it's working as described since it isn't supposed to avoid a collision, it's supposed to lower the collision speed when one is unavoidable. When using TACC, the feature that's supposed to handle accel and braking, it worked fine.

    There's enough real issues with Teslas (and any other car for that matter), that there shouldn't be a need to manufacture fake ones.
     
    • Like x 1
  11. Gavyne

    Gavyne Member

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2018
    Messages:
    669
    Location:
    SoCal
    IIHS was doing these tests to evaluate autonomy. The real story here should be that Tesla, Model 3 in particular, performed well ahead of the other cars when it comes to the car driving itself (adaptive cruise control & active lane keeping). Shows you how advanced Tesla's autopilot system is, and to know a new version is coming within a month as well.
     
  12. SupersonicP3D

    SupersonicP3D Member

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2018
    Messages:
    19
    Location:
    San Francisco, CA
    To me it seems clear that the 25mph slowdown and the phantom braking are connected. Teslas clearly have a problem with false positives that cause them to brake unnecessarily (I've personally experienced this a few times in my Model 3). If the computer brought them to a full stop every time it saw a shadow, we'd have cars stopping on the highway - obviously that's very dangerous. I'd much rather have the car reduce speed by 25mph (which provides the driver with warning and allows him/her to continue braking) given those constraints and I suspect Tesla came to the same conclusion when weighing the tradeoffs. It also seems fairly clear that if Tesla's sensing of objects in front of it was perfectly accurate (high sensitivity AND specificity, I.e., minimal false negatives AND false positives), the cars would bring themselves to a full stop. I'm sure Tesla's working on resolving this. Given the other cars aren't using particularly different hardware, there doesn't seem to be any reason that Tesla couldn't improve on this with a software update.

    BTW while the title is clickbait, this isn't FUD. I for one am looking forward to mass market adoption of the Model 3 so that more owners aren't shareholders and are purely incentivized to advocate for fixing issues with their cars.

    TLDR: AEB is limited to 25mph b/c of the phantom braking issue. Tesla will likely resolve this gradually via OTA updates.
     
    • Like x 4
  13. Runt8

    Runt8 Active Member

    Joined:
    May 19, 2017
    Messages:
    1,664
    Location:
    Colorado
    AEB has been limited to a 25mph decrease long before phantom braking issues showed up.
     
  14. SupersonicP3D

    SupersonicP3D Member

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2018
    Messages:
    19
    Location:
    San Francisco, CA
    There's absolutely no reason to implement it this way unless the computer has uncertainty about whether there is an object in front of you.
     
  15. Glamisduner

    Glamisduner Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2017
    Messages:
    2,801
    Location:
    Escondido, CA
    #35 Glamisduner, Aug 7, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2018
    I agree, auto braking on the tesla without EAP was never designed to come to a complete stop at high speeds (it's not a feature the car has), it is just to reduce the impact in an inevitable crash. It's a known fact so BI is just spreading FUD.

    I mean that's like saying the cruise control works terribly on cars without cruise control... Why would they expect the system to work outside of specified parameters?

    Headline is that tesla is worst, but in fact it also the best when you add the feature (EAP) that handles this. This is why it is spreading FUD, it makes it sound like the car with the most automated driving experience is the worst at auto braking, but that's not the case, as they were testing a non EAP vehicle.

    Thanks BI, now go home.
     
    • Like x 1
    • Disagree x 1
  16. diamond.g

    diamond.g Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2015
    Messages:
    1,958
    Location:
    Moyock, NC
    If I understood the article correctly TACC was causing the braking events not AEB.
     
  17. chinnam3

    chinnam3 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2018
    Messages:
    278
    Location:
    Bellevue
    It is the same sensor set that sees these shadows or real cars. But my guess is, TACC is more cautious like mentioned in IIHS review and slowing down much before, where as AEB waits for last moment before kicking in, and by that time mostly sensor gets more data to indicate there is no obstruction in case of shadows. May be Tesla is still not comfortable with sensor data to be completely trust worthy to apply full braking at late stage with AEB.
     
  18. chronopc

    chronopc Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2017
    Messages:
    2,689
    Location:
    California
    AEB works as intended. BI translation: major flaw found in Teslas.
     
    • Like x 2
  19. clostridium

    clostridium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2017
    Messages:
    304
    Location:
    NE Ohio
    I’m super curious why people disliked this post.

    Do you disagree about his description of what AEB is for? Because he was correct based on every definition I’ve found in web searches.

    Are you disagreeing with the statement that only the Tesla’s failed in this test? Because that’s true.

    Or are you disagreeing with the statement that the Tesla’s are having trouble detecting stationary objects? Because that’s true.

    Did I miss something else in that post that was worthy of dislike?
     
    • Like x 1
  20. chinnam3

    chinnam3 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2018
    Messages:
    278
    Location:
    Bellevue
    I am seeing many Fan boys getting heartache for criticizing Tesla even for right reasons. I hope Fan boys get out of their shell and be reasonable/rationale.

    I myself owner and fan of Tesla, but that does not mean I would be blind to the Tesla Faults.

    In this specific case, I really like that Tesla, esp my model 3 maintained the steering to keep within the lines, and that mirrors my experience where lines are clearly laid out (without merges).

    Also, at the same time, I have first hand experience of Phantom braking several times. I can consistently reproduce this issue. First time it happen on highway at 80MPH because of overpass and that was scary and jarring. Now when it starts braking I press throttle to counter that.

    Another issue is AEB. As we have seen enough instances where Tesla did not apply brakes/ or did not apply fully causing accidents. So this is one of those important features I hope AEB is improved soon and take care of the issue. I did not want to test this, and fortunately I have not ran into situation like this. IMHO, it is as critical as Belts, airbags, ABS etc to reliably work.

    Hope, Tesla takes care of both of those issues soon and also gets the promised EAP features like switching highways on EAP and taking right exit sooner.
     
    • Disagree x 1

Share This Page

  • About Us

    Formed in 2006, Tesla Motors Club (TMC) was the first independent online Tesla community. Today it remains the largest and most dynamic community of Tesla enthusiasts. Learn more.
  • Do you value your experience at TMC? Consider becoming a Supporting Member of Tesla Motors Club. As a thank you for your contribution, you'll get nearly no ads in the Community and Groups sections. Additional perks are available depending on the level of contribution. Please visit the Account Upgrades page for more details.


    SUPPORT TMC