Model 3 as a Student Driver car

[AquaMan]

Hi all. This is my first post.

I own a driving school for teens and some people say I'm insane to consider the Model 3 for our fleet. I figure this crowd will understand the many reasons, including fuel savings, safety, excellent visibility, (for instructor and student) and let's face it it's good for marketing.

Still, since I expect this idea will draw a lot of off-topic comments, let me FIRST put the most common concerns to rest: No, we don't constantly crash cars. In fact mile-for-mile, we may crash less than the average driver. We've put over a 1.6 miles on our fleet in the last 10 years. During that time, we've been rear-ended 4 times and 3 times we've damaged rims on curbs. That's not a lot. (P.S. I would plan to add a 1.75" lift kit to keep the body higher from curbs.)

Let me also acknowledge, so to alleviate the temptation to discuss this... Yes I'm aware that if Tesla succeeds with full level 5 self-driving, my livelihood will be done. I hope they succeed but I still figure I still have 1-2 more decades during which it will remain a requirement to learn to drive to obtain a license.

NOW to my questions which need a little background: In all our cars, we install passenger-side brake and accelerator pedals. They're very simple devices using pulleys and cables which just pull down on the driver-side pedals. They mount to the firewall (not the floorboard). But with this in mind, before I take the plunge, I have the following questions:

1) Often, our students step on the accelerator, while the instructor steps on the brake. (Essentially 2-foot driving) In our current ICE cars, this is not a big problem... The brake simply wins. The transmission slips but the car stops or stays still. This is ABSOLUTELY necessary or I can't use a Model 3. Well, I test drove a Model 3 and tried using both pedals, and confirmed that it slows (cool) and that it beeps (cool) but I didn't confirm that if both pedals are fully depressed, the car will stop and remain stationary. (I didn't get the chance.) Sooo... I need one of the two to be true:

a) It will behave as I require. If it does, cool. But even if so, there's a LOT of torque to overcome with brake pads.
b) I can use a relay from the brake light wiring to "override" the fly-by-wire accelerator pedal so it looks to the car as if it's released when the brake is applied. Does anyone know if or how this could be done?
c) Although it may be a bit complicated, I could do it mechanically: Rearrange the cables so that when the instructor steps on the brake pedal, it does two things: Depress the driver-side brake pedal, and also physically lift the accelerator. The brake kit wasn't designed for this... It only has one cable for the brake pedal.

Any thoughts? In particular with how the accelerator pedal is wired? (That is, what each wire does.) Or how I can find out?

 

[AquaMan]

Oops I guess that's really just one main question, and I present 3 alternatives not 2, but I guess I don't have editing privileges.

 

[cwerdna]

I own a driving school for teens and some people say I'm insane to consider the Model 3 for our fleet. I figure this crowd will understand the many reasons, including fuel savings, safety, excellent visibility, (for instructor and student) and let's face it it's good for marketing.

We've put over a 1.6 miles on our fleet in the last 10 years. During that time, we've been rear-ended 4 times and 3 times we've damaged rims on curbs. That's not a lot. (P.S. I would plan to add a 1.75" lift kit to keep the body higher from curbs.)

Only 1.6 miles? Did you forget a modifier?

IMHO, I do think you're insane. It's too expensive a car and you'll probably have curb rash damage to the wheels pretty early on. There are numerous curb rash threads like these:
Please fix the curb rash risk on Model Y !
Model 3 curb crush

And, if there's damage that needs body shop work, YMMV on how long it'll take. There are numerous month+ long horror stories here. I personally know someone at my work who damaged his 3 (his fault, I won't press him on the details but was enough to require a tow) and it was in the shop (mostly waiting for parts) for 5 months!

Just buy something relatively cheap like a barebones Prius if you want the fuel savings. It doesn't matter that the car's ugly and it doesn't need to be fast.

 

[TampaRich]

I think its smart to teach student drivers on an electric car platform. Aside from cost, why even bother to teach them on dinosaur cars that won’t be around much longer?

 

[AquaMan]

Oops yes, that's 1.6 million miles. Still wish I had editing privileges.

Thanks for your input. I already have cheap cars of course. I've been doing this a while and there are many considerations when I choose a car, not all of which I've mentioned. I've considered other electric cars -- Not enough range for a full workday. I've considered Prius -- Poor driver visibility. I've considered just about every other hybrid -- Generally they add more to the price than they save in carbon-based fuel, they still require ICE maintenance, and they too have their share of blind spots and other issues. We're a high-end driving school, higher prices, retired law enforcement instructors, parents can ride along, etc. When I was a teen, I was trained by my P.E. teacher, who had no more driving knowledge than my parents, and there were 3 other kids in the back seat. That's not how we roll. I hope I've justified my reasoning for exploring this option, but if not I'm still looking for an answer.

So, to be clear: I have decided that this is the right car for us IF and only if the "simultaneous both pedals" issues can be effectively resolved by "electronically lifting the accelerator pedal" when brake lights are active. That's what I'm hoping this thread is about.

 

[AquaMan]

I think its smart to teach student drivers on an electric car platform. Aside from cost, why even bother to teach them on dinosaur cars that won’t be around much longer?

Thanks, I wholeheartedly agree. Kids today will be driving electric cars most of their lives. I've been surveying parents and teens about this, and the response is overwhelmingly positive. Their two main concerns are:

"Isn't it dangerous for a new driver to try to deal with all that instant torque?" (Potentially, yes. That's what I hope to address here. The instructor must be able to stop abruptly when someone else is depressing the accelerator, or yes it would be dangerous.)

"I'd be afraid to scratch it." That's our problem. I know repairs take a while, but we keep spare cars and a low insurance deductible. Still, scratches are part of life, and it would be wrapped with our branding.)

There are tons of other good business reasons: Dash cam, the ability to track employees, future "inside cam" with audio to supervise employees, the ability to exchange cars without exchanging keys, high quality navigation (we can ditch the Garmins), the fact that I currently have to pay employees for their time at oil changes, etc... on and on, this is the way to go. If a cheaper electric car had sufficient range (and good visibility) I'd look into one. Mid-day superchargers are not a reasonable option because I'd have to pay employees not only for charging time, but also for the additional travel to each one.

 

[PatrickCH4313]

Have you considered the VW ID.3 full electric car with 420 - 550 km (WLTP) range coming next year!

 

[AquaMan]

Have you considered the VW ID.3 full electric car with 420 - 550 km (WLTP) range coming next year!
View attachment 442392

Thank you... 550km is adequate but 420 is not. Hadn't considered it until just now, but it didn't take long. Just watched a YouTube video on it and... Since an instructor has no driver-side mirror, (and one can't be added as it would confuse the student) he needs to be able to look over the left shoulder to keep the car safe. Unfortunately what I see on that car is a lot of metal where I wish there was glass, at the C pillar. Same reason I rejected all the Prius models.

To help alleviate this, in our Corollas I actually added cameras under the wing mirrors, with screens displayed to the instructor, but the system is a bit unreliable. I must say I LOVE that the rear camera in the Model 3 can be displayed full-time for the instructor. (We always add a center mirror for the instructor, and a passenger-side wing mirror for the instructor, mounted low where the student can't see it, but we can't do that on the driver side.)

 

[67King]

I don't think that the car will move with both the brake and throttle depressed, at least from a stop. It flashes up a warning on the screen that both are depressed. I think that the car will be taking care of the problem for you. Perhaps you could take the care for a test drive, and explain to the salesperson what you are trying to do. I would bet that the logic in the car will automatically override the throttle when the brake is depressed. May be wrong, but I think a simple test drive would be a good idea to check it out.

What kind of real world range do you require? And under what kind of conditions? Reason I ask is that on the highway, I only realize a fraction of the stated range.....now mine is a performance, so that is a hit, but I would definitely check into that a little bit more, given your rejection of the VW due to range.

You might also see if you can get in touch with Tesla, directly, perhaps tweet Musk, and see if the company could help you get the car set up. I know they don't really market their cars, but it may be something they'd consider. The unasked question is always answered "no," so there's not much to lose.

Also.....why jack up the car? The car sits pretty dang high as it is. Sits a couple inches higher than my BMW 5 series.

 

[derotam]

I just want to say that you might want to not use Model 3's as the normal student vehicle. My reason is this...regenerative braking...Because most cars on the road don't have regen, AND it is more likely that the student will be driving a non-regen car...teaching them on a car with regen could cause issues when they get into a non-regen vehicle...oops I forgot I need to get on the brake right away if I want to slow down. I don't use Low regen so I don't know how "loose" it is but I think even on Low there could be issues for new drivers.

Its a great idea to add them to your fleet, but I would use them in conjunction with a non-regen braking car.

Just my 2 cents...

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

I just want to say that you might want to not use Model 3's as the normal student vehicle. My reason is this...regenerative braking...Because most cars on the road don't have regen, AND it is more likely that the student will be driving a non-regen car...teaching them on a car with regen could cause issues when they get into a non-regen vehicle...oops I forgot I need to get on the brake right away if I want to slow down. I don't use Low regen so I don't know how "loose" it is but I think even on Low there could be issues for new drivers.

Its a great idea to add them to your fleet, but I would use them in conjunction with a non-regen braking car.

Just my 2 cents...

Unlike humans, cars do not brake the same. As long as Low Regen isn't very forceful (like a Prius, or even a Volt in D), it should be very easy to adjust.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

...

"Isn't it dangerous for a new driver to try to deal with all that instant torque?" (Potentially, yes. That's what I hope to address here. The instructor must be able to stop abruptly when someone else is depressing the accelerator, or yes it would be dangerous.)

Two words: Chill Mode.

 

[Rockster]

Upon reading OP's initial post my first thought was, "Oh, no! He's going to get a bunch of posts about wrecks, damage, repair time, etc." because people think that driver's ed cars get wrecked all the time. My father taught driver's ed for more than 30 years and was never in a wreck. The worst that happened was a student made a wrong turn and ended up in someone's front yard. Other than some ruts in the grass, there was no harm done.

I echo the slight concern about regenerative braking. Even with it turned to the lowest setting there will be some adjustment required when the student switches to an ICE car. Perhaps the thing to do there is try to ignore regen and condition the student to use the brake, as normal?

I'm about to go out to lunch. If I get a chance I'll try hitting both pedals simultaneously while at a reasonable speed to see if the car behaves as OP wishes.

 

[disapr]

Great idea using EV's for this. My kids are years away from driving school but I know that both them and I would prefer a place that uses EV's, especially the Model 3!

If you haven't received an answer in a bit I will go test this for you but I'm 99% sure that the brake interrupts the accelerator.

 

[AdamVIP]

You're not planning a whole fleet of them are you? I would use EVs as a supplement to an ICE fleet. That way they can learn on what they are most likely going to buy (used ICE car) and be aware that EVs drive different (Regen/torque). I don't think you'll have a problem with the brakes being able to overpower the motor as modern brakes will handle that pretty well.

 

[JasonR67]

Unlike humans, cars do not brake the same. As long as Low Regen isn't very forceful (like a Prius, or even a Volt in D), it should be very easy to adjust.

It can be pretty aggressive at times. Ideally you only use the brake when coming to a full stop.

I have a 15yo who's starting the road portion of drivers ed. So I have given this some thought.

For the foreseeable future he'll be driving an ICE car. I am worried the Model 3 will foster some bad habits:
- Regen braking, not transitioning to the brake soon enough when slowing down. I've been driving for a LONG time, and after driving the Model 3 for 2 weeks, getting back into the Subaru is an adjustment.

- Handling - It handles much better than the Subaru Outback he will have access to. My concern is he'll expect the handling of the Model 3, which taking an off ramp in the Subaru.

- Acceleration - Can you safely pull out in traffic in X car (or short stubby on-ramps). The acceleration in the Model 3 ca n get you into (and out off) problems very quickly. The ice car they go back to won't have the same margin for error.

- HOLD / Lack of ICE Creep. [This one can be fixed by a setting] but by default pressing the brake in while stopped will HOLD the car in place so you don' have to keep you foot on the brake pedal. I would turn on creep mode so the get used to holding the brake in at stop lights.

(the car he'll have the most access to is a stick shift, which makes the transition even more dramatic)

I understand it's our job as parents or driving instructors to make sure they understand the rules and limitations. but to me going from a Model 3 -> ICE is too big enough change to be overlooked. Going ICE -> Model 3 is easier.

 

[AquaMan]

Thanks folks. A few things:
1) Yes I would get one car at first, work out the kinks, then upgrade more.
2) I didn't reject the VW for range, I rejected it for the big blind spot at the C pillar from the instructor perspective.
3) To answer a question, I need to be able to drive 220 miles per day, and I'm looking at the LR RWD (which in the USA are currently only available used.) That's 325 miles, charging to 85% nightly, and assuming maybe 15% battery degradation after 400K miles before retirement, the LR RWD should do nicely.
4) I agree that some families will prefer to learn in a car more like their first $2,000 used car. Everyone will be fully aware of which vehicle is scheduled in for every appointment.
5) I have already test driven, and I confirmed that while at freeway speeds if I start 2-foot driving with mild braking, it beeps but the brake and accelerator "fight" each other. (It slows, but not as much as brake alone.) This is what the ICE cars do also. What I didn't get to test is whether it will RAPIDLY stop when a student has fully depressed the accelerator. Sometimes they confuse pedals. (I'm trying not to say "gas pedal".)

6) What I'm really after here is a way to create an electronic override for the accelerator pedal upon brake light activation. If it's an optical encoder, installing LED's inside could trick the pedal into thinking it's fully released. If it's a potentiometer, I could either fully close or fully open a circuit with a relay for similar results.

In short, I'd like to understand the "electrical presentation" of the accelerator pedal as seen by the car.

 

[JasonR67]

6) What I'm really after here is a way to create an electronic override for the accelerator pedal upon brake light activation. If it's an optical encoder, installing LED's inside could trick the pedal into thinking it's fully released. If it's a potentiometer, I could either fully close or fully open a circuit with a relay for similar results.

In short, I'd like to understand the "electrical presentation" of the accelerator pedal as seen by the car.

I might check with Rich Rebuilds / EV Garage. They may have deeper knowledge than the forums.

 

[AquaMan]

I just bought a used Model 3 accelerator pedal on Ebay. $80 including shipping. It has 6 contacts, which means it's almost certainly not an optical encoder unless there's a chip inside and it's sending a serial signal. (Which would be very weird design.) They appear to be low voltage connectors.

So, it's probably a potentiometer which would mean I could override it with an external relay. I'm gonna put it on my multimeter and see how it behaves in terms of resistance from wire-to-wire as the pedal moves. What I will not know is how much voltage it handles (12v?) or which wires are power vs. ground. I will also Dremel it open to see what's going on in there.

I figure it's worth $80 to explore this and know for sure.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

I'd be worried about the regen, but also all the other non-standard habits the Model 3 introduces. It's cool to have Model 3 as a supplemental training platform, assuming you can overcome the various issues you're asking about.

I've seen experienced drivers who have become accustomed to Model 3 do the following:

1) Get out of their automatic car with the engine running and in Drive. Yeah it started moving. At a gas station. Perfect place for runaway vehicles.
2) Exit their AT vehicle and leave the car running with the key in the ignition.
3) Not apply the parking brake in an AT vehicle.
4) Not remember to lock their car most of the time. (That's me)
5) Not apply the handbrake in a manual transmission vehicle when exiting the vehicle. (That was me)
6) Not put the manual transmission in gear when exiting the vehicle. (That was me. I had been doing that reliably for 25 years without fail...)

Just important to be aware of the habits that will NOT be taught when teaching in an EV with a lot of rollaway protections.

I didn't reject the VW for range, I rejected it for the big blind spot at the C pillar from the instructor perspective.

Sounds like you've tried it and it's good for you (especially with supplemental mirrors), but note that for the student, the Model 3 has pretty atrocious visibility. Good practice, I guess! Note also that for tall drivers, it is impossible to properly adjust the driver side mirror to be angled far enough out (it appears to be a design flaw) to "correctly" cover the blind spot. The solution is to sit further forward than is comfortable. I'm 5'9" and it's a problem, but I like to sit relatively far back for normal driving.