Model 3 at $40K?

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

Dude. Did you actually look at the link I posted? The one that goes directly to the EPA's website, FuelEconomy-dot-gov...? The one that shows "EPA Fuel Economy" as the formula "1 gallon of gasoline=33.7 kWh"...? The one that specifically shows the range rating of multiple vehicles, and their MPGe based upon calculations for "kWh / 100 mi"...? This is EXACTLY what it stands for... it is not MY reasoning behind these calculations, but the EPAs... And they are BIASED in FAVOR of smaller electric vehicles that can NEVER achieve the range that their MPGe intimates.

Dude. Why would anyone think of MPGe as range? It's used for familiarity and it's based on a measure of efficiency that nobody would think of as an absolute measure of range.

 

[donauker]

Dude. Did you actually look at the link I posted? The one that goes directly to the EPA's website, FuelEconomy-dot-gov...? The one that shows "EPA Fuel Economy" as the formula "1 gallon of gasoline=33.7 kWh"...? The one that specifically shows the range rating of multiple vehicles, and their MPGe based upon calculations for "kWh / 100 mi"...? This is EXACTLY what it stands for... it is not MY reasoning behind these calculations, but the EPAs... And they are BIASED in FAVOR of smaller electric vehicles that can NEVER achieve the range that their MPGe intimates.

Dude. Of course they are BIASED in FAVOR in favor of smaller vehicles. This must be why all smaller vehicles get awarded higher MPG ratings then large heavy vehicles. I thought it was because smaller lighter vehicles need less energy to move from point A to point B.

 

[Red Sage]

This confuses a lot of people.

Thanks for your explanation. It makes it a lot more clear what people are speaking of in terms of 'efficiency' for cars like the Nissan Leaf. I still disagree with the means that the calculations are made, but at least I know why now.

The main reason I posted what I did is that the range listed for those EVs is directly related to what is listed as MPGe. It is a straight multiple of MPGe times battery capacity. No one seems willing to admit that fact.

 

[ElSupreme]

Thanks for your explanation. It makes it a lot more clear what people are speaking of in terms of 'efficiency' for cars like the Nissan Leaf. I still disagree with the means that the calculations are made, but at least I know why now.

The main reason I posted what I did is that the range listed for those EVs is directly related to what is listed as MPGe. It is a straight multiple of MPGe times battery capacity. No one seems willing to admit that fact.

Their methodology is quite sound (maybe not for the semi-arbitrary value of an eGallon). Smaller lighter cars are more efficient. And the required EPA bits on the window sticker show not only MGPe but also range.

Here is what the 2014 FFE sticker looks like.

As an anecdote I generally get to work ~290-300Wh/mile in my Model S. When driving the FFE it is in the 220-240Wh/mile range.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

The main reason I posted what I did is that the range listed for those EVs is directly related to what is listed as MPGe. It is a straight multiple of MPGe times battery capacity. No one seems willing to admit that fact.

What??!!

Range = ( { mpge rating } / 33.7 ) x {charging efficiency} x {total battery capacity} x {proportion of battery available}

{charging efficiency} are liable to be close since manufacturers can choose how to charge.
{proportion of battery available} varies between manufacturers.

 

[EVNow]

As an anecdote I generally get to work ~290-300Wh/mile in my Model S. When driving the FFE it is in the 220-240Wh/mile range.

That's only because MPGe is biased against the big cars I like

That's like saying Hummer is less efficient than the Prius !

 

[ljwobker]

Agreed. The Leaf is much more efficient than the Model S - real world. That is not just because of weight directly. Higher weight begets larger tires which have more rolling resistance. The Model S is not particularly efficient. That is what MPGe measures. That is reality and a big deal. The Model 3 will probably be much more efficient.

Now what I don't know is did they hit the brakes on the Model S every time. What did they set regen on. I could see the Model S getting punished (fairly or not) based on no extra regen when you hit the brakes. Certainly the Leaf and probably every other EV increase regen when the brakes are used. The EPA probably hits the brakes when a lot of Model S drivers don't regularly hit the brakes. But I'm sure that the EPA stays conventional and doesn't modify their driving for Model S - which is fair.

One data point : I have about 25k miles on my LEAF and about 8k on my model S. Lifetime efficiency of about 315wh/mi on the Tesla and maybe 290-300 on the Leaf. Obviously not identical driving patterns as I can't do long trips in the leaf, but I'd estimate that the LEAF is somewhere between 5-10% more efficient than the model S.