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Model 3 dual motor AWD optional

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FWD probably would be a market-acceptance choice, if anything, and would seem more likely in a smaller car than Model 3 (in some types of car the customer expects FWD).

While I agree with most of what you are saying, just one more data point:
What Tesla is all about is not to match any "market-acceptance". It's about to challenge what the market may accept, and educate the market. An EV with long range and good looking? A family "sedan" with sports car like performance? A sporty muscle car with seating for 7?

So I think that they will make the drive-train they think is the best choice for the car, and educate the marked about it if it's collide with what the marked expect. And if they don't find any particular reasons for the one or the another, they may very well give the customer the choice. (No, I don't expect it on the Model 3, but maybe in a future (sub)compact?)
 
While I agree with most of what you are saying, just one more data point:
What Tesla is all about is not to match any "market-acceptance". It's about to challenge what the market may accept, and educate the market. An EV with long range and good looking? A family "sedan" with sports car like performance? A sporty muscle car with seating for 7?

So I think that they will make the drive-train they think is the best choice for the car, and educate the marked about it if it's collide with what the marked expect. And if they don't find any particular reasons for the one or the another, they may very well give the customer the choice. (No, I don't expect it on the Model 3, but maybe in a future (sub)compact?)

I'm not sure that necessarily is entirely true. Smells a bit of hyperbole. Sure, Tesla is leading the EV revolution and anyone how understands how revolutionary simple its skateboard base is (compared to ridiculous contraptions by competition) gets that, but outwardly they are still striking a balance of a car acceptable to the wider public... Tesla makes cars that look like regular cars, they are fueled in the same spot etc... Tesla doesn't make weird-EVs - unlike the competition - and this is for a very good reason. They want to be car-like... enough.

I wouldn't put it past them to try to be familiar-enough with Model 3 too (so that they have a chance at pushing their revolution through), and FWD vs. RWD could possibly be - especially in sub-Model 3 sizes - such a factor.
 
... but outwardly they are still striking a balance of a car acceptable to the wider public... Tesla makes cars that look like regular cars, ...

True again, but you forgot one word: "still". On the TMS/TMX they are making that balance as you correctly stated. Original Elon and Franz wanted something else for Gen-III, but seems like they has retracted and goes for the same balance for the Model 3. But they both has stated that they want to challenge this more in the future.
 
True again, but you forgot one word: "still". On the TMS/TMX they are making that balance as you correctly stated. Original Elon and Franz wanted something else for Gen-III, but seems like they has retracted and goes for the same balance for the Model 3. But they both has stated that they want to challenge this more in the future.

This is true, of course. Interesting to see the areas where they choose to challenge in the Model 3 round - and especially beyond. I wonder, could the next-gen Roadster be intriguing?
 
Agree.
I'm puzzled why the thought of FWD continues in this thread. The chances of Tesla doing FWD is basically slim and none.

Ditto

Let's assume the bodywork is front-to-back neutral, in terms of mass.

HVAC and battery cooling systems need to be in front of the battery to get air coming into the car... so they can't be at the back of the car. These devices, the pipes etc. weigh something.

To put the invertor and battery at the front also, would make the car front-heavy.

To give the car equal weight balance (or... better anyway) they would be behind the battery. The exact number of people complaining about this premium, one-motor car being RWD instead of FWD would be... zero.
 
Agree.
I'm puzzled why the thought of FWD continues in this thread. The chances of Tesla doing FWD is basically slim and none.

It is years prior to Model 3 release. One can argue that it is puzzling anyone is talking anything if you look at it like that. The resemblance of what we discuss anyway and what Tesla will release are between slim and none in most topics. :)

It is an interesting question: EV form-factors, drivertrains, pros and cons of which. We all agree RWD is much more likely in the case of Model 3.

I am puzzled by how adamant some people are in their views. "Never gonna happen, why even talk about it" stance can mislead too, like it did so many with the Model X adaptive spoiler.

- - - Updated - - -

Ditto

Let's assume the bodywork is front-to-back neutral, in terms of mass.

HVAC and battery cooling systems need to be in front of the battery to get air coming into the car... so they can't be at the back of the car. These devices, the pipes etc. weigh something.

To put the invertor and battery at the front also, would make the car front-heavy.

To give the car equal weight balance (or... better anyway) they would be behind the battery. The exact number of people complaining about this premium, one-motor car being RWD instead of FWD would be... zero.

Now, without that "Ditto" part - and the last sentence - a perfectly fair post of course. Some new angles there to the question. I appreciate those.

Two things:

- Are we sure Tesla will position Model 3 as Premium? Will they go after the 3 Series or the Volkswagens of this world? Indeed, if their goal is to make it a premium car, that certainly increases the (already large) chances of RWD.

- Why say things like nobody would miss FWD. Obviously historically e.g. three of six mainstream premium manufacturers in Europe are FWD loyal, and out of the three other, Mercedes and BMW have released FWD cars near the Model 3 segment (most notably Mercedes CLA).

It is not unheard of the some demographics Model 3 could target might expect FWD. Especially if Tesla were to target luring non-premium drivers into EVs.

Now, even I of course said RWD is 80% likely for Model 3 - so consider this a mental exercise. :)
 
On the subject of a FWD Tesla, I think the reason why they won't go with that is the same reason why BMW did not go with FWD for the i3 (it doesn't get much smaller than the i3 in terms of size either, plus they also had to fit the REx in the back): people in the premium market expect RWD and it's a marketing advantage.

While ICE makers are forced into FWD because of significant cost, efficiency, and packaging advantages (the CLA is an example of that), such an advantage doesn't really exist for EVs (you get a bit more space right behind the rear seats, but that's about it, no real cost/efficiency advantage).

I have discussed with people about the CLA before, and brought up it was FWD. The reaction was disbelief and I had to show them the spec sheet to convince them. Mercedes haven't been doing a lot of marketing about it being FWD and I suspect many people still think it is RWD like a C-Class. Likely because being FWD isn't something to be proud of in the premium segment (at least in the US market, not sure about other markets), while being RWD is continually being trumpeted.
 
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For every BMW i3 there are tons of FWD Audis, Volvos and historically Saabs. Audi does longitudinal FWD in most of its models which has very little packaging advantages compared to RWD. Aud does FWD because their customers demand it. On the transverse side, Audi TT sells a lot as a premium FWD sports car, even roadster (!).

I guess this all depends where on is coming from. Maybe the openmindedness to FWD is a "Euro socialist" trait. :) But I wouldn't say premium customers expect RWD. Some do. It really depends a lot if you are the kind of person that buys a Porsche or BMW - or if you are the kind of person who buy Audi or Volvo.

Which market will Tesla target? I don't claim to know. I agree RWD seems more likely (80%).

p.s. Let's not use BMW i Series as examples of space-efficient EV packaging. ;)
 
For every BMW i3 there are tons of FWD Audis, Volvos and historically Saabs. Audi does longitudinal FWD in most of its models which has very little packaging advantages compared to RWD. On the transverse side, Audi TT sells a lot as a premium FWD sports car, even roadster (!).

I guess this all depends where on is coming from. Maybe the openmindedness to FWD is a "Euro socialist" trait. :) But I wouldn't say premium customers expect RWD. Some do. It really depends a lot if you are the kind of person that buys a Porsche or BMW - or if you are the kind of person who buy Audi or Volvo.

Which market will Tesla target? I don't claim to know.

p.s. Let's not use BMW i Series as examples of space-efficient EV packaging. ;)
Volvo and Saab have been a market failure and had to be bought out by the Chinese. Audi is really the only one doing fine in the premium segment with primarily FWD cars (although they are mainly famous for their AWD quattro system).

The packaging advantage of FWD is largely related to the elimination of the drive shaft. This results in a hump which the middle rear passenger has to straddle and significant efficiency loss as well as extra cost. There is also a traction advantage related to the engine being over the drive wheels. These factors are non-existence in an EV.
 
Volvo and Saab have been a market failure and had to be bought out by the Chinese. Audi is really the only one doing fine in the premium segment with primarily FWD cars (although they are mainly famous for their AWD quattro system).

The packaging advantage of FWD is largely related to the elimination of the drive shaft. This results in a hump which the middle rear passenger has to straddle and significant efficiency loss as well as extra cost. There is also a traction advantage related to the engine being over the drive wheels. These factors are non-existence in an EV.

The packaging advantages of FWD are two-fold, first and foremost it allows for transverse engine placement (sideways). This is the main reason why Mercedes did it in the CLA, and why the likes of Skoda Superb are so vast in interior space, because less of the car needed for basically "the bonnet". Audi uses transverse engine placement only in their small models that share VW platforms, the Audi A1, A3, Q3 and TT.

The other benefit, lack of central tunnel, is actually used very little in larger premium cars for a simple reason: it is used for exhaust and with AWD sister models having two different packagings is found an unnecessary cost anyway. All those longitudinal FWD Audis, where engine takes just as much space of the front as on RWD, have central tunnels still. It is not a consideration for them or their buyers. Audi uses none of the FWD packaging benefit in larger models.

This brings us to the main FWD benefit in premium, above compact cars that is: FWD has a unique driving dynamic preferred by some demographics. Audi today makes FWD cars because their demographic demands them, just like BMW makes RWD cars for theirs - historical reasons for both of course. Audi has toyed with RWD in labs and it has always been nixed eventually (outside of R8) for fear of alienating customers. One thing, I guess, we are skirting around (no pun intended) is that FWD cars sell a lot to the high-end family car as well as female demographics, where its driving dynamic is preferred. It is no wonder Audi TT, even in its FWD form, sells a lot in the latter demographic. With CLA, Mercedes can target these demographics - and does. It is not targeting the hardcore BMW petrolhead or Porsche enthusiast.

Audi even makes the Audi A8 in front-wheel drive. These cars don't have 50:50 weight distribution, because in those demographics that buy these FWD cars, it really doesn't matter. For them FWD is the safe, sensible choice that they are familiar with. They are not buying a track weapon, quite the contrary.

Tesla being a new manufacturer, of course has no such historical baggage of its own to consider - except for, by now, a core group of fans and early adopters, whom I would assume find RWD acceptable in general and would be suspicious of FWD, if TMC is anything to go by anyway. ;) But those fans are insignificant in size as a group for Model 3 considerations. What Tesla does have to - and probably does - consider is what kind of historical baggage overall do they need to overcome for market acceptance. They already have an uphill climb for the EV part, no need to go asking for trouble in areas that are not important to them. They will want to sell Model 3 probably to a wide range of people and demographics. In doing so, they will have to select some or few, because not all customer-bases want the same things.

If Tesla wants to introduce their revolution to the masses, it needs to pick its battles carefully and maintain a certain amount of familiarity in areas that are not crucial to change in their revolution. This is why Model S looks like a regular car, it charges around the spot where you'd fuel a car, those Superchargers look like retro gasoline stations and so forth - the magic, for most part is hidden under a layer of familiar. I'm guessing the front vs. rear wheel drive question is not pertinent to Tesla's mission at all, so in theory I would expect them to look at the issue fairly impassionately as a company (individuals may of course have strong views) and choose the one that helps them sell most cars. I don't think EV revolution in itself demands Tesla to take a stance on FWD vs. RWD, it is not important to the question at all.

RWD in Roadster and Model S segments is more common, easy choice - check. In Model 3, there is a lot more FWD competition... so a little more pause. In a hypothetical future sub-compact Tesla, a lot more pause over this question.

So, in my estimation, the question boils down to: What drivetrain configuration helps them sell most Model 3s and thus usher in the EV revolution fastest? I think they will stick with RWD due to their precedent (even though Roadster and Model S are in wholly different categories) and because I think they will target BMW 3 Series, but considering most of the cars sold in the world in general are FWD, the case for an FWD Tesla down the road is not an impossible one. For that FWD driving demographic, taking the leap to EV is already hard for some, why ask them to leap to RWD (if AWD is not economical) too and put in one more roadblock... That was my line of thinking I was getting philosophical on.

p.s. If you are trying to link Volvo's and Saab's failure to their proponency of FWD, I think we can agree to disagree. Hopefully that is not what you are trying to say. Also, I'm betting you there are tons more RWD car manufacturers out there that are no longer in existence. ;)
 
AA put it nicely - there are people who like FWD and there are others who like RWD. Both groups are quite strong on their POV.

TM3 will have AWD with FWD and RWD in a single car. I don't think anyone expects tesla will go single motor + driveshaft route for AWD.

So, just delete that RWD from AWD version and voila - FWD for those who see it as better than RWD and cannot afford/need/want AWD. It might be a bit more expensive than RWD or maybe not even that.
 
AA put it nicely - there are people who like FWD and there are others who like RWD. Both groups are quite strong on their POV.

TM3 will have AWD with FWD and RWD in a single car. I don't think anyone expects tesla will go single motor + driveshaft route for AWD.

So, just delete that RWD from AWD version and voila - FWD for those who see it as better than RWD and cannot afford/need/want AWD. It might be a bit more expensive than RWD or maybe not even that.

Agreed. While, as said, I don't find the FWD/RWD/AWD option a very realistic one for Model 3 productio, in theory it could work very nice for the above-mentioned demographics:

- Base FWD model, the smallest motor, "safest" driving dynamic
- Mid-level RWD model, larger motor, nice horsepower, good dynamic
- Top-level AWD, both motors for maximum grip and horsepower

It is a nice idea anyway. Doubtful to happen, but at this early stage, fun to toy with. :)
 
From a manufacturer's POV here's a suggestion. It's the three card trick RWD, FWD or AWD and you want the customer to make the "right" choice' ...

For the Tesla marque and the Model 3 then AWD is obviously the preferred config.

A Nissan Leaf with RWD is fine but with Tesla you're going to pay more and expect more. I see the main differentiator is always going to be AWD going forward.

So you offer either AWD with 75Kw motors on one hand or a 150Kw RWD on the other.
However, and this is most important, the RWD version will come with a $7K upcharge.
 
So you offer either AWD with 75Kw motors on one hand or a 150Kw RWD on the other.
However, and this is most important, the RWD version will come with a $7K upcharge.
Hmmm... 75 kW is about 100.6 HP... 150 kW is right at 201.2 HP. Do you work for General Motors?

The least powerful AC induction motor that Tesla Motors has offered was a 154 HP unit used in the Toyota RAV4 EV. and that was just a detuned unit -- at the specific behest of Toyota -- of the 300+ HP motor used in the Model S 40 and Model S 60. Tesla does not make slow cars. There is absolutely NO benefit to be gained by having a wimpy motor in any version of the Model ☰. The car is meant to take over an entire market segment from the BMW 3-Series. That won't be done by matching the performance profile of a BMW 320d. It is more likely to happen if the base version of the Model ☰ exceeds the capabilities of the BMW 340i instead.

Elon Musk has already stated that the base version of Tesla Model ☰ will be Rear Wheel Drive. I'm sure he has noted that there are those who lament the passing of a a RWD version of the Performance oriented Model S. I also think he has probably dismissed that concern, in light of learning that dual motor all wheel drive is simply BETTER -- for safety, range, and performance. The only way there will be a Performance level Model ☰ with RWD, as an 'upcharge' is if Elon decides to take pity on those who want to hang out the rear on a track. I sincerely doubt that likelihood. No matter how much 'fun' people claim to have, driving sideways has never been the fastest way around a track. And it sure as [HECK] isn't the safest. Only the most stylish.
 
Hmmm... 75 kW is about 100.6 HP... 150 kW is right at 201.2 HP. Do you work for General Motors?

The least powerful AC induction motor that Tesla Motors has offered was a 154 HP unit used in the Toyota RAV4 EV. and that was just a detuned unit -- at the specific behest of Toyota -- of the 300+ HP motor used in the Model S 40 and Model S 60. Tesla does not make slow cars. There is absolutely NO benefit to be gained by having a wimpy motor in any version of the Model ☰. The car is meant to take over an entire market segment from the BMW 3-Series. That won't be done by matching the performance profile of a BMW 320d. It is more likely to happen if the base version of the Model ☰ exceeds the capabilities of the BMW 340i instead.

Elon Musk has already stated that the base version of Tesla Model ☰ will be Rear Wheel Drive. I'm sure he has noted that there are those who lament the passing of a a RWD version of the Performance oriented Model S. I also think he has probably dismissed that concern, in light of learning that dual motor all wheel drive is simply BETTER -- for safety, range, and performance. The only way there will be a Performance level Model ☰ with RWD, as an 'upcharge' is if Elon decides to take pity on those who want to hang out the rear on a track. I sincerely doubt that likelihood. No matter how much 'fun' people claim to have, driving sideways has never been the fastest way around a track. And it sure as [HECK] isn't the safest. Only the most stylish.
Indeed
All those folks wanting ECO modes with wimpy motors or extra paddles for assorted regen braking options need to be looking somewhere other than Tesla for their cars. According to all the press releases almost every manufacturer is going to be building one, eventually.