Model 3 dual motor AWD optional

[MartinAustin]

The only reason the Model S with dual motor is more efficient is because they are using the old, power optimized, large rear motor and then a newer, smaller and more efficient front motor.

I don't think that's the exact reason that dual motor is more efficient. The reason is, you can turn one of the motors off when the car only has to cruise along - like, using cruise control. When you need bags and bags of torque, you can turn on the other motor.

It doesn't matter if you have motors of different sizes, or the same sizes, or the motor you turn off and on is the front motor or the back motor. There will be an energy savings when you turn one of them off during cruising.

Now, Tesla is gaining experience with this technique that no other car manufacturer is gaining right now. The P85D has motors of different sizes. I believe the 85D and 70D use motor pairs whose power is identical front and rear. (though more powerful in the 85D, naturally) Tesla is gaining real world experience across thousands of cars of both types of configuration. When they do this in the Model 3, it will be "next-gen" energy efficiency during cruise.

I am also in the camp that thinks the base Model 3 will be RWD for cost reasons. AWD will be an option on most of the other variants in the range. When we see who is right... I think everyone will be happy no matter what

 

[vinnie97]

I know a lot of people that bought the Model S did so at a significant financial sacrifice, and I have a lot of respect for those that did. But I simply have a comfort level in terms of how much I want to spend on a car. I wish I were at a place in my life where the difference between $50,000 and $100,000 is academic, but I'm not. I guess just reading the threads and posts where prices of $65-70k are discussed for the Model 3 is discouraging. And I want to be clear I'm the LAST person that grinds the axe of class warfare. I just hope there will be trims of the Model 3 that are accessible to the average buyer.

As a destitute lower class member who also doesn't buy into class warfare, I have to echo your sentiments. Toyota got to economies of scale with the Prius for the everyman, so I have high hopes that Tesla will get there, too. I'm pretty sure it won't be the Model 3, but it will be the closest anyone has achieved yet.

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My needs are even more simple:

• 200+ miles of range (so that Supercharging is relatively time-efficient because most of it is in the bottom half of the SOC level).
• Supercharger capable.
• Decent snow performance, although AWD would be preferred so that I can get up my long, steep, curved driveway in winter without chains.
• An "affordable" price. This is the big one: $50k for a car? Not a chance.

I'm certainly aware that the range in cold or snowy weather would be considerably less than the rated range but I don't tend to make long trips in adverse weather conditions.

I have no interest in tech goodies or 0-60 type performance. None, zero, zip. I would guess that in the "mass market" such views are not uncommon.

I agree with your $50k being a nonstarter price. However, wouldn't you need something more robust tech-wise (like nav?) or are you not planning on stepping outside of your comfort zone (as far as distance traveling is concerned)? Having supercharger information at my fingertips would be a hard option to decline.

 

[MartinAustin]

I know a lot of people that bought the Model S did so at a significant financial sacrifice, and I have a lot of respect for those that did. But I simply have a comfort level in terms of how much I want to spend on a car. I wish I were at a place in my life where the difference between $50,000 and $100,000 is academic, but I'm not. I guess just reading the threads and posts where prices of $65-70k are discussed for the Model 3 is discouraging. And I want to be clear I'm the LAST person that grinds the axe of class warfare. I just hope there will be trims of the Model 3 that are accessible to the average buyer.

I'm confident Tesla won't stray from that price... they have been chanting $35,000 for years. They've also said "about half the price of the Model S" for a long while, when the base price was $69,900.

I used to think the base price was going to be $34,900, but now that they have changed their base pricing to a round $75,000 in the 70D... I project the base price of the Model 3 will be $35,000. This will be plus delivery+documentation fees of about $1,000 and your state sales tax. This will get you RWD inc. traction control, cloth seating for four (or a cramped five), range of 220 miles, navigation & touchscreen, basic audio, coil suspension, solid roof, 17" wheels, parking sensors, and black or white paint. 0-60 will be about 6.0 seconds. Supercharging will be included IMO. Reservation deposit will be $1,000.

 

[ryanjm]

Wow, after looking at those godawful renders, I would 100% NOT hire Stumpf Studios to do any design/concept work for me. For anything. Who looks at that and thinks that's cool/good/impressive?

 

[AudubonB]

I have what I hope is an absolutely incontrovertible reason that this understandable comment of Greg's, and likewise similar ones in this thread, is as wrong as bellbottoms:

I just react to posts that seem to indicate that the Model 3 market will somehow be budget shoppers. It will be an expensive car with expensive options, and I'm pretty sure the ASP will be well above the base price (but certainly not 70K).

(Gregincal post #40)

It is: because if this is the case, then Tesla Motors has lost the battle, and the war. Fold up your tents and go home.

The single most important part of Elon Musks's Secret Master Plan is that endgame in the creation of Tesla Motors is to bring forth a vehicle that would sell at the 500,000 per year rate. And the Model 3 is that endgame; it is to be for budget shoppers. If you are to convince me otherwise, it would be through convincing me that there is a YEARLY market of 500,000+ buyers of a $40K? $45K? $50K? automobile. I do not believe that to be the case.

 

[stopcrazypp]

The single most important part of Elon Musks's Secret Master Plan is that endgame in the creation of Tesla Motors is to bring forth a vehicle that would sell at the 500,000 per year rate. And the Model 3 is that endgame; it is to be for budget shoppers. If you are to convince me otherwise, it would be through convincing me that there is a YEARLY market of 500,000+ buyers of a $40K? $45K? $50K? automobile. I do not believe that to be the case.

The 3 series which Tesla is targeting with the Model 3 is that vehicle. It sold 480k units in 2014 (the coupe 4 series sold 120k units in addition to that number), 500k units in 2013 (4 series 14.7k, previously was 3 series coupe).
http://www.bmwgroup.com/bmwgroup_pr...s/news/2015/dividendenmeldung_maerz_2015.html

While the Model 3 will be much less expensive than the Model S, I'm not sure it'll qualify as a budget vehicle.

For the record, the 3 series sedan starts at $33k, and a fully loaded 335i sedan is in the $60-70k range. Then the M3 starts at $62k and can be optioned up to $90k.

Given that, I still think Tesla will come out with a $35k version and I agree that Model 3 buyers will be far more budget conscious than the Model S crowd. Just like how there were people that "stretched" to get a 60kWh Model S, there will be plenty that will "stretch" to get a Model 3 (although far less stretching required, maybe more like reach).

 

[MartinAustin]

Tesla isn't targeting any particular brand or car with the Model 3. They just want everyone to buy it.

You may perhaps be thinking about what other brands will be hit hardest by Tesla Model 3.

Don't forget, there are Priuses, Civics and other modestly-priced cars whose owners decided to get a Model S, along with owners of Audi A8, BMW 7, Mercedes S etc etc.. For all of those people, there simply wasn't an alternative to the Model S that they could consider. If the Model 3 is available, it will eat into sales of the Model S, but Tesla probably won't be bothered by that... don't forget their mission is to convert the world to electric cars and it doesn't matter which oil-burning car brand loses a sale if Tesla manages to sell one of their BEVs.

There will be a heck of a lot more Civic owners moving to Model 3 than there will be BMW 3 owners. Some BMW 3 owners may move to a Model S... but there will be hardly any more Civic owners moving to Model S (once Model 3 is available).

 

[MarkR]

I gotta think that most of the the people on this forum are already MS owners who will want the new Model 3 when it arrives. We will want the tech package, the largest battery, AWD, leather, air suspension, upgraded paint, premium audio, auto-pilot, the performance package, a pano roof, wood trim, better seats, a center console, and a few other new options that I can't yet imagine - it will certainly cost $70k+. In addition to our MS, we currently have a BMW 3 series. The new Model 3 will be the perfect size for us. Looking forward to a Model 3 P100D, 0-60mph in 2.8 seconds!

 

[dgpcolorado]

...I agree with your $50k being a nonstarter price. However, wouldn't you need something more robust tech-wise (like nav?) or are you not planning on stepping outside of your comfort zone (as far as distance traveling is concerned)? Having supercharger information at my fingertips would be a hard option to decline.

A valid question. For local driving, say a few hundred miles, I certainly don't need a nav system. But I don't believe for a minute that the Model 3 will not have some sort of basic nav system that allows one to plot courses between Superchargers; the car isn't a $15k econobox. It is the other fancy stuff, such as Bluetooth, that holds no appeal.

However, even if the Model 3 didn't have a nav system, unlikely though that is, I would just plot the Supercharger stops and terrain profiles before I left on a road trip. In fact, I plan to do so even with a nav system. For example:

 

[gregincal]

It is the other fancy stuff, such as Bluetooth, that holds no appeal.

Bluetooth isn't exactly fancy. A base model Toyota Corolla at less than 20K includes Bluetooth as standard.

 

[MartinAustin]

Bluetooth isn't exactly fancy. A base model Toyota Corolla at less than 20K includes Bluetooth as standard.

Not to mention, it's more-or-less required to help you avoid holding a cellphone to your head, which is illegal in more and more places (and even more by the time the Model 3 comes out)

 

[gregincal]

There will be a heck of a lot more Civic owners moving to Model 3 than there will be BMW 3 owners.

Although I'm sure that there will be some Civic owners buying the Model 3, I'm not convinced that will be more than BMW 3 owners. The Model 3 will be twice as expensive as the Civic. Gas savings accounts for something, but still.

 

[vinnie97]

Yep, my Prius C (a vehicle that SRP'd for under $20k) Two has Bluetooth.

Fair enough, dgp, that would certainly be a valid alternative (terrain plotting).

 

[igotzzoom]

Yeah, BT, satellite radio and even nav aren't the exclusive luxury items they used to be. I'd even challenge anyone to find a car on a lot now that DOESN'T have power windows. In theory, there are cars that offer crank windows, but it's like finding a needle in a haystack. I could see the Model 3 having manual seats standard, and probably a non-leather interior. But even in "base" form, I expect it will be well-equipped.

 

[vinnie97]

Actually, my father bought a base model Nissan Frontier last year that they had to ship in from elsewhere, and it had crank windows much to his surprise and chagrin. I was a bit gobsmacked myself. He apparently didn't think to ask (what's comical, though, is it actually did contain Bluetooth phone functions; perhaps to comply with all the new laws about cell phone operation while driving)...and inadvertently found the veritable needle in said haystack. I'm betting crank window won't ever be in the vocabulary of Tesla Motors.

 

[Red Sage]

Though the average selling price for a new car was over $31,000 last year, the majority of cars purchased hovered around the $22,000 mark in the United States. That is right at the cost of a new Toyota Camry LE. The base trim of a BMW 3-Series is appointed about the same as a Camry LE. I would not expect a base Model ≡ to come any less equipped than a Camry LE or 320i. I would not be surprised if the base Model ≡ was equipped as well as an Avalon XLE, or Lexus ES 350. But those that suggest it would come practically stripped, like a 1972 Ford Maverick or 1974 Mercury Bobcat or 1984 Chevrolet Chevette or 1990 Ford Escort are all smoking crack and liking it.

The 'bells and whistles' will be fully available as options. But all the expected standard issue features will be available on the base Model ≡. Trim levels will most likely be defined by battery pack capacity. Options will be available regardless of trim level.

So, yes... You could add around $15,000 in options to the $35,000 base trim to get a $50,000 price. Or, you could conceivably add $20,000 in options to the $50,000 performance trim to get a $70,000 price. It all depends upon how Tesla Motors decides to handle drivetrain and battery capacity. Meanwhile, the margin on options from a tow hitch to a set of 20" wheels will make the platform enormously profitable, to the envy of the automobile industry.

 

[wallet.dat]

At the very least, I hope the Model E has 4G connectivity.

 

[gregincal]

At the very least, I hope the Model E has 4G connectivity.

I imagine it will, but of course you are going to have to pay a monthly fee for internet connectivity.

 

[dgpcolorado]

Yeah, BT, satellite radio and even nav aren't the exclusive luxury items they used to be. I'd even challenge anyone to find a car on a lot now that DOESN'T have power windows. In theory, there are cars that offer crank windows, but it's like finding a needle in a haystack. I could see the Model 3 having manual seats standard, and probably a non-leather interior. But even in "base" form, I expect it will be well-equipped.

I agree.

I was disappointed with the switch to power windows since, to me, it is just something frivolous to break and need fixing. However, it is what it is. But, then, I view air conditioning the same way, since it is unnecessary where I live and I always ordered cars without it if I could. Not too many cars made without AC nowadays! The only extra gadget I really appreciate is cruise control; I won't buy another car without it. I also really appreciate the heated steering wheel in my LEAF (don't use the heated seats much) so I hope that the Model 3 has that.

So far as nav is concerned, I can't see Tesla not including nav in a Supercharger capable car; it's part of the Supercharger paradigm. Whether Supercharger access is standard on the base Model 3, or an extra cost option, remains to be seen.

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Not to mention, it's more-or-less required to help you avoid holding a cellphone to your head, which is illegal in more and more places (and even more by the time the Model 3 comes out)

I suppose that you are right, but research shows that it is the act of making a phone call that leads to distracted driving, similar to threshold DUI in accident rates. Not whether or not it is handheld. And texting is worse, as I hope is generally known. So, I'd like to see phone use while driving banned, not that it will ever happen. I do appreciate the drivers who pull over to the side of the road to make phone calls.

 

[RobStark]

Tesla isn't targeting any particular brand or car with the Model 3. They just want everyone to buy it.

Elon has mentioned the BMW 3 Series more than once as the target/benchmark. Sometimes he mentions Audi A4.

Of course Tesla wants everybody to buy it.

Tesla wants everybody to buy a Model S too.

The average new car selling price so far in May 2015 is $30,428.

http://autos.jdpower.com/content/bl...y-shaping-up-to-be-highest-so-far-in-2015.htm

But the average American car buyer buys a used car and spends an average of ~$16k.

Almost every one thinks they are "normal" and what they can afford is "affordable."

But the fact is Tesla is targeting the top 30% in the industrialized countries and maybe the top 3% in China.

The bottom 50% will be able to "afford" a Tesla when they become 5-10 year old used cars.