Model 3: First 100 Miles Impressions from a P85D Owner

[Bobfitz1]

Do we even know if there's going to be a Performance version?
I don't think so (despite what Elon has tweeted in the past).
No performance version is on the M3 timeline. Just SR battery and AWD.
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Why do you think there would not be a P version of M3? We know Tesla wants/needs to sell as many high priced M3s as possible to maximize revenue while the ramp proceeds more slowly than anyone expected. That's why they began with the LR M3 first.
Just because a P isn't shown yet on the website M3 design studio means nothing.

I spoke with a Tesla sales rep connected with M3 reservations and ordering last week. I selected to go on hold because I want at least dual motor. I told him I also wanted to see what price and performance would be for the M3 P75D before I ordered a dual motor. He said that made sense and others were doing the same. He said nothing to suggest a P won't become available sometime later this year or early next.

 

[HankLloydRight]

We know Tesla wants/needs to sell as many high priced M3s as possible to maximize revenue while the ramp proceeds more slowly than anyone expected. That's why they began with the LR M3 first.

By that logic why didn't Tesla start selling a P version right away?

Just because a P isn't shown yet on the website M3 design studio means nothing.

Exactly. There's exactly the same amount of evidence for a P version than there is for no P version: NONE.

What I'm saying if there is a P version on the timeline, you'd think Tesla would either be selling it now, or telling people when it might be available. Neither of those are happening.

I'm also saying I don't think there will be a P version at least for a couple of years (2020) when Tesla will need to enhance/refresh the M3 product offering once all existing orders are fulfilled, in order to create more demand. By that time, first production owners would be chomping at the bit to upgrade to a P M3 version. Just look at all the people who jumped into a P85D the instant it was available... and then flipped their P85Ds for P90Ds.. and then again for P100Ds with Ludicrous. Tesla knows how to motivate people into trading up their existing cars to the newest/hotest/fastest cars. It doesn't make sense for them to do that inside of a year of release of the M3.

Just like when everyone jumped down my throat when I said two years ago there wasn't going to be a Signature Model 3, and everyone used the same reasoning you are now ("why wouldn't they?"). Guess what? No Signature M3 to be seen.

. He said nothing to suggest a P won't become available sometime later this year or early next.

So, not saying anything is evidence that there is something? Seriously, that's your evidence?

 

[Wolverinegeoff]

By that logic why didn't Tesla start selling a P version right away?



Exactly. There's exactly the same amount of evidence for a P version than there is for no P version: NONE.

What I'm saying if there is a P version on the timeline, you'd think Tesla would either be selling it now, or telling people when it might be available. Neither of those are happening.

I'm also saying I don't think there will be a P version at least for a couple of years (2020) when Tesla will need to enhance/refresh the M3 product offering once all existing orders are fulfilled, in order to create more demand. By that time, first production owners would be chomping at the bit to upgrade to a P M3 version. Just look at all the people who jumped into a P85D the instant it was available... and then flipped their P85Ds for P90Ds.. and then again for P100Ds with Ludicrous. Tesla knows how to motivate people into trading up their existing cars to the newest/hotest/fastest cars. It doesn't make sense for them to do that inside of a year of release of the M3.

Just like when everyone jumped down my throat when I said two years ago there wasn't going to be a Signature Model 3, and everyone used the same reasoning you are now ("why wouldn't they?"). Guess what? No Signature M3 to be seen.



So, not saying anything is evidence that there is something? Seriously, that's your evidence?

Pretty sure Elon confirmed P model a few months ago on twitter with a similar timeline as AWD (before it got pushed back)

 

[Bobfitz1]

By that logic why didn't Tesla start selling a P version right away?
I'm also saying I don't think there will be a P version at least for a couple of years (2020) when Tesla will need to enhance/refresh the M3 product offering once all existing orders are fulfilled, in order to create more demand.

Sorry HankLloydWrong, If you think there won't be a P version for a few years... you're delusional.

 

[MarkS22]

I believe they're avoiding discussing it because Performance Model 3 would likely beat every Model S except the P100D in range, 0-60, and handling. Until they can ramp 3 production or refresh the S, there would be too much overlap. I base this on owning just the RWD Model 3 and a P85D. Other than that instant torque of an insane launch (and of course the hatchback with extra storage), the Model 3 is just a more refined vehicle across the board. Again, I understand these vehicles are different classes, but that doesn't count here because many bought the Model S despite it being a large sedan, not because of it.

Furthermore, based on my experiences with the Model 3, I'm imagining they want the initial batches to be lower in complexity. That might not be the best for margins (although requiring Premium and Long Range helps), but it's easier to diagnose issues when you don't have more aggressive driving, more amps drawn, more mechanical stress, and the like.

I genuinely think Tesla had hoped to have a refreshed S to coincide with the Model 3 launch, but real life got in the way. The more people that see the Model 3, the more I think they'll understand.

 

[MarcG]

@MarkS22 thanks for all your input. P85D owner here with Ludicrous upgrade, contemplating a 3 with long range and AWD.

I think someone asked this before, but did you have the “next-gen” seats in your P85D? If so, how do the 3’s seat compare?

Also, did you have an early-model P85D with the stiffer “Plus” suspension? I love how flat mine corners despite the extra weight. How does the 3 compare?

Thanks in advance!
-Marc

 

[MarkS22]

@MarkS22 thanks for all your input. P85D owner here with Ludicrous upgrade, contemplating a 3 with long range and AWD.

I think someone asked this before, but did you have the “next-gen” seats in your P85D? If so, how do the 3’s seat compare?

Also, did you have an early-model P85D with the stiffer “Plus” suspension? I love how flat mine corners despite the extra weight. How does the 3 compare?

Thanks in advance!
-Marc

I believe I just missed out on the next-generation seats. I remember asking if I could upgrade them by paying the difference, but it was too late.

I do have a late 2014 P85D and yes, it does take the corners flat. I describe it as feeling magnetized to the road. The 3 is most definitely a Tesla, but you can feel the lighter weight, especially in the corners. I’d say it’s more fun and sporty, while the S is more commanding. The S feels like a kind of modern electric tank. Not that it handles poorly but you feel the size/weight and that’s both a positive and negative. Before the 3, I loved it. But now, for everyday driving, I prefer the 3. A Performance AWD 3 (preferably with a hatchback option) would be my ideal car. Unless, of course, a refreshed S nails it and becomes that with all the 3’s improvements and more. (I’m talking stuff you’d see in a genuine large flagship sedan like an S Class Mercedes, like active bolsters, better sound system, more range, better active suspension, even better/faster UX than the 3, ventilated seats 2.0, night vision, soft close doors, built-in window shades, laser or some form of advanced projector headlights, and yeah a HUD.)

This 3 was always intended to be a stopgap for me while waiting for the S to refresh. I didn’t expect to like it so much. I thought it was going to be a noticeably “economy” Tesla. Instead, as I’ve mentioned elsewhere, it feels like the platform is the refrehed Model S. While you can’t beat an insane/ludicrous launch, it’s not nearly as exhilarating after doing it for three years. I mean, sure it’s fun and helps with merging, but once you’ve taken all your friends and family for a ride, it doesn’t feel as important to me. (Even the RWD 3 has plenty of power for passing at highway speeds.)

And then you consider it’s less than half the price of the P85D (when it was new) with more range, the latest Autopilot, a faster user interface, better wiring and major system redundancies, no fuses (using more advanced MOSFETs), keyfob-less entry, more advanced HVAC, general user refinements (better phone holders, door storage, coat hooks), brighter headlights, and noticeably better sound system. The worst thing about the 3 is how it makes me feel about the S I’ve loved so much.

 

[HankLloydRight]

Pretty sure Elon confirmed P model a few months ago on twitter with a similar timeline as AWD (before it got pushed back)

Do I really need to list all the things Elon confirmed on twitter that we've never seen or never will see?

Sorry HankLloydWrong, If you think there won't be a P version for a few years... you're delusional.

What's delusional is holding a belief for which there's absolutely no evidence to support that belief.

 

[Jayc]

Sorry HankLloydWrong, If you think there won't be a P version for a few years... you're delusional.

I think it comes down to margins. Until Tesla is able to make as much money from a Model 3 P version as they do now with MS P100D, and they sort out production bottlenecks, we are unlikely to see Model 3 performance versions on the road. Of course Tesla may start talking about the performance version anytime soon but that will not mean people can order and receive their cars soon after the announcement.

 

[MarcG]

I believe I just missed out on the next-generation seats. I remember asking if I could upgrade them by paying the difference, but it was too late.

I do have a late 2014 P85D and yes, it does take the corners flat. I describe it as feeling magnetized to the road. The 3 is most definitely a Tesla, but you can feel the lighter weight, especially in the corners. I’d say it’s more fun and sporty, while the S is more commanding. The S feels like a kind of modern electric tank. Not that it handles poorly but you feel the size/weight and that’s both a positive and negative. Before the 3, I loved it. But now, for everyday driving, I prefer the 3. A Performance AWD 3 (preferably with a hatchback option) would be my ideal car. Unless, of course, a refreshed S nails it and becomes that with all the 3’s improvements and more. (I’m talking stuff you’d see in a genuine large flagship sedan like an S Class Mercedes, like active bolsters, better sound system, more range, better active suspension, even better/faster UX than the 3, ventilated seats 2.0, night vision, soft close doors, built-in window shades, laser or some form of advanced projector headlights, and yeah a HUD.)

This 3 was always intended to be a stopgap for me while waiting for the S to refresh. I didn’t expect to like it so much. I thought it was going to be a noticeably “economy” Tesla. Instead, as I’ve mentioned elsewhere, it feels like the platform is the refrehed Model S. While you can’t beat an insane/ludicrous launch, it’s not nearly as exhilarating after doing it for three years. I mean, sure it’s fun and helps with merging, but once you’ve taken all your friends and family for a ride, it doesn’t feel as important to me. (Even the RWD 3 has plenty of power for passing at highway speeds.)

And then you consider it’s less than half the price of the P85D (when it was new) with more range, the latest Autopilot, a faster user interface, better wiring and major system redundancies, no fuses (using more advanced MOSFETs), keyfob-less entry, more advanced HVAC, general user refinements (better phone holders, door storage, coat hooks), brighter headlights, and noticeably better sound system. The worst thing about the 3 is how it makes me feel about the S I’ve loved so much.

Thanks for the detailed description! I’m holding out for the AWD model 3 and look forward to test-driving it.
In the meantime I’ve ordered a RWD version for a friend, so will definitely drive that one for a bit to get a feel for it.

 

[Bobfitz1]

Do I really need to list all the things Elon confirmed on twitter that we've never seen or never will see?
What's delusional is holding a belief for which there's absolutely no evidence to support that belief.

Sorry HankLloydWrong, maybe you should have done a 15 sec Google search before imagining it will be a few years before an M3 performance variant is released. You'd have found this on Teslarati:
Tesla Model 3 Performance possibly spotted ahead of dual motor rollout

Another way to gauge how long it may be before we see an M3 P75D is to see how long it was after introduction of MS and MX before their P variants were introduced.

The Signature MS began shipping in Aug. 2012. Near the end of 2012 they made 4 MS variants available for ordering, including the P85D. That's 4 - 5 months.
MX Signature deliveries began Sept. 29, 2015. Despite the many MX gestation problems, Tesla released the P90D Feb/March 2016.
That's 5 - 6 months.

The reason(s) Tesla brought out performance versions of MS and MX shortly after dual motor versions came out are the same as doing so for the M3. What again was your evidence for thinking an M3 P will not be out in 1 - 2 years or more?

 

[jbcarioca]

The debate is interesting but pointless to me. My P85DL+ has been my obsession, just ask my spouse how I fell about it.

Then I drove an M3. I want a PxxD but I’ll happily settle for just AWD if I must. Frankly I never, well almost never, use L anymore but I do often use chill.

As others I bought my S despite the size. My preferred size is 911-like and this a Roadster order will serve me ideally, all that performance is just a gigantic plus.

In the Meantime it’s whatever Model 3 AWD I can get first.

 

[HankLloydRight]

Sorry HankLloydWrong, maybe you should have done a 15 sec Google search before imagining it will be a few years before an M3 performance variant is released. You'd have found this on Teslarati:
Tesla Model 3 Performance possibly spotted ahead of dual motor rollout

Oh good lord, really? Red calipers and a different rear applique means it's a Performance Model? That stupid article is pure speculation and offers ZERO EVIDENCE that a performance Model 3 is being produced any time soon.

That car and article has been discussed to death already on TMC (go look it up). People already identified that car as Franz's original M3 with a few customizations, not surprising for the head designer at Tesla who wanted to make his car a little unique.

Another way to gauge how long it may be before we see an M3 P75D is to see how long it was after introduction of MS and MX before their P variants were introduced.

No, it's not. What happened with MS or MX is not applicable at all to Model 3. MS/MX didn't have hundreds of thousands of standing orders.

What again was your evidence for thinking an M3 P will not be out in 1 - 2 years or more?

Exactly. I have no evidence, therefore, I'm making statements that a Performance version is coming soon. You are making the claim, therefore you need to supply the evidence to support that claim. As of right now, there still is none.

When Tesla announces a Performance version of M3, that's evidence. Until then, everything else is speculation.

 

[ölbrenner]

When Tesla announces a Performance version of M3, that's evidence.

Just like when they announced the tow package.

 

[HankLloydRight]

Exactly. I have no evidence, therefore, I'm **NOT** making statements that a Performance version is coming soon.

oops.. there's supposed to be a "not" in that statement as noted above.

 

[Bobfitz1]

Oh good lord, really? Red calipers and a different rear applique means it's a Performance Model? That stupid article is pure speculation and offers ZERO EVIDENCE that a performance Model 3 is being produced any time soon.
No, it's not. What happened with MS or MX is not applicable at all to Model 3. MS/MX didn't have hundreds of thousands of standing orders.
Exactly. I have no evidence, therefore, I'm NOT making statements that a Performance version is coming soon. You are making the claim, therefore you need to supply the evidence to support that claim. As of right now, there still is none.
When Tesla announces a Performance version of M3, that's evidence. Until then, everything else is speculation.

Not surprised you want to keep on digging your hole deeper.

I challenged your assertion(s) that:
"Do we even know if there is going to be a Performance version?
I don't think so ( despite what Elon has tweeted in the past). "

"I'm also saying I don't think there will be a P version at least for a couple of years (2020) when Tesla will need to enhance/refresh the M3 product offering once all existing orders are fulfilled, in order to create more demand."

What evidence did you have for asserting there won't be a P version for a couple of years? That they haven't added it yet to the Configuration web page or officially announced it yet?

There is a clear pattern Tesla makes a P version 4 - 6 months after the dual motor version. That's not 'evidence' guaranteeing they will this time, just highly predictive they will again. The point of my original post is that your opinion there will not be a P for a couple of years is not supported by either historical pattern or financial benefits to Tesla of making higher profits by selling a P version.

I suppose you think the sun won't rise tomorrow because there is no evidence that it has already happened? LOL

 

[HankLloydRight]

I'm not digging any hole deeper.

Again, as I said, the Model 3 is a completely different animal. MS/MX didn't have hundreds of thousands of standing orders with deposits (which I already mentioned, which you ignored). Any Model 3 Perf model will cannibalize MS/MS Performance cars which have a much higher margin. Tesla could lose money by offering a PM3. As I've said several times already, I think they'll only release a M3 Performance version when demand slows down in order to boost demand and force the "must haves" to upgrade to the new P version. There's no need to do that "5 to 6 months" later, just because that was the timing for MS/MX.

So your ONLY case for "evidence" so far is: "Well, it was 5-6 months for MS and MX, therefore that's what they're going to do for M3." Sorry, Charlie, that's not evidence, that's speculation. Evidence is FACTS. Evidence is REAL. Evidence is not a "clear pattern" of unrelated events. Just pointing to what happened years ago for totally different models and lines has absolutely no bearing on what will happen in the future. Also, correlation is not causation (see: Correlation does not imply causation - Wikipedia).

I suppose you think the sun won't rise tomorrow because there is no evidence that it has already happened? LOL

What now? How about keeping this civil. Of course there is evidence the sun rises everyday. It's called SCIENCE, which is based on evidence.

If you don't understand how evidence works, there's no sense in continuing this conversation.

 

[HankLloydRight]

I challenged your assertion(s) that:

You've only challenged my assertions by posting one article that's pure speculation, and correlating past events that have no relation to future events.

If you're going to challenge my assertions, please bring something better to the table.

 

[McRat]

Unless they downsize the rear motor in the Model 3LRD, adding a front motor, even a 200hp/250lb (gross) one will most likely turn it into a 3.x second to 60mph variant at 4100lb capable of running high to mid 11 second ETs at 112-116 mph. This is assuming the battery won't fade for 12 seconds or they don't deliberately detune it.

I've had a number of 11 second cars over the years. While not evil and wicked, most drivers are going to be solidly impressed if not terrified of one. The 11 second cars are one of the reasons we now have stability control. With no stability control, think early Dodge Viper driven in anger. The Model 3 won't be as much of a terror due to the SC being fixed in the ON position and very low CG, but it will be suitability quick in stoplight warfare vs most performance cars.

So call it P or not, unless they shrink the rear motor, the AWD is probably going to rip. 2017 Audi TT/RS, 2017 Corvette, 2017 BMW M3 Comp Pack, etc, are going to get a good look at your rear plate.

However, this is straight line stuff so far. Any Model 3 "P" series should be a total package. LSD in the back, weight reduction, big brakes, more tire, some downforce, more cooling if required. The power won't be the problem, the 4100lb mass will.

 

[WileyTheMan]

While you can’t beat an insane/ludicrous launch, it’s not nearly as exhilarating after doing it for three years. I mean, sure it’s fun and helps with merging, but once you’ve taken all your friends and family for a ride, it doesn’t feel as important to me. (Even the RWD 3 has plenty of power for passing at highway speeds.)

Thanks for this. It helps me get over not waiting for the P version.