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Model 3 Front Seat Bolt Front

IronQQQ

Member
Jun 11, 2019
214
328
Rancho Cucamonga, CA
Hmm made a mistake with the thread title. Should be "Model 3 Front Seat Bolt Torque"

I unbolted and moved the fronts seats to install some deadening mat. Surprisingly it took 70-80 ft-lb to break and loosen the bolts holding the front seats. This is a scary amount of torque to be applied to M10x1.5 threads via a T45 head.

The bolts were held in with Loctite Red (271) which require heat to loosen. Over kill for the front seats.

Does anybody know what torque to re-torque the bolts too? I think it should probably be in the 25-30 ft-lb range?

I will use blue loctite instead.
IMG_20200424_180014.jpg

IMG_20200424_175600.jpg

Tesla EPC - Item 10 is the bolt
IMG_20200424_210410__01.jpg
 

PNWLeccy

Active Member
Jul 11, 2019
1,304
1,130
Seattle
I unbolted and moved the fronts seats to install some deadening mat.
Unfortunately, I don’t have an answer to your question but...Do you have any plans to write up your sound deadening efforts? I’m planning on doing the same thing when I finally get my materials from amazon and could use any tips and am interested in your results.
 

Dayreg

Member
Jul 22, 2016
38
71
USA
Unfortunately, I don’t have an answer to your question but...Do you have any plans to write up your sound deadening efforts? I’m planning on doing the same thing when I finally get my materials from amazon and could use any tips and am interested in your results.

I don't mean to hijack the OP, though I hope this is helpful since it's related to the topic. Sorry I don't know the answer to your bolt torque question.

I have two 3s, one with extensive sound deadening and one with other mods, and they sound about the same. I don't have a non-modified 3 to compare to though.

When using a sound meter, the numbers jump around a bit, but both cars are fairly similar at 35mph driven on the same roads, same time of day. I'd say the car with deadening has a slightly lower overall tone, which is more pleasant, though it could be my ears tricking me.

I still need to test both cars again at 70mph, but for now, both cars are getting 64-67 dBA on the following meter (though on different days so temp and wind may have been different):

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00ECCZWWI/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

For the sound deadened car, I pulled all four door panels, the front carpet, and applied Dynamat-type material to reduce vibration, followed by closed cell foam and mass loaded vinyl. Though I didn't remove the front seats, I also covered under the rear floor with the dynamat, actually Noico, material and inside the roof of the trunk. Be very careful and watch videos on the rear doors, as you don't want to mess up the window regulator when getting into the inside of the door under the interior trim.

For the second car, instead of the effort above, I put the Tesla sunscreens on both roof glass pieces, and for the front one, I added some thinsulate material against the glass. The second car also has the extra door seals they sell on amazon. I did have a wind noise issue on the driver's side that I mostly fixed by adding additional "D" shaped seal under the main door seal to make it stick closer to the window. You can find those instuctions here:

Wind/road noise from doors/windows -- fix it for good

FInally, for both cars, (on 19 inch wheels), the sound deadened 3 has Pirelli Cintuado P7 Plus All Seasons at 40psi. The other one is a stealth model and has Michelin Pilot Sport 4S summer tires at 40psi. Both cars have Lloyds Luxe mats, which are plush floor mats.

Unfortunately, I don't have before and after measurements, since I didn't buy the sound meter until after I had completed the work. I've read that two other benefits to adding the sound insulation is it should help with insulating from hot/cold outdoor temps and stereo performance.

My theory is that any remaining noise is coming through the windows themselves and there's not really a solution for that. Edit: I should add that I'm overall pleased with both cars, considering they're sport sedans. In my personal opinion, changing the tires, running them at 40psi and the roof insulation made the easiest and most impact. Everyone's ears are different, though, so you might experience a bigger difference. You might find that combining the sound deadening and the roof insulation will be even better.

Even without all this hobby work, I still think they're the best cars you can buy today.
 
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PNWLeccy

Active Member
Jul 11, 2019
1,304
1,130
Seattle
I debated going through the effort to add sound deadening since the door seals, roof noise reduction kit, trunk insulation mat and the rubber tubing in the A pillar (suggested in solved:wind noise thread) didn’t do anything noticeable to improve noise. I also watched Bjorn’s video where he gets his M3 extensively sound deadened and it didn’t seem to make a massive impact.

However, one of the things that inspired me to do this is that I had been putting off permanently installing the trunk insulation mat since I have Model with the rear deck cutout that I think is bringing in a lot of noise from the trunk area. I want to close that off (any suggestions? I was just going to use the kilmat(noico) I ordered over the hole and use the rest on the bare metal on the trunk roof before closing it up w/ the mat. Because I ordered the 36sqft I figured I would tackle the trunk area first since from what I’ve read, that is where most of the noise is coming from. It looks like you didn’t do this area?
I still need to test both cars again at 70mph, but for now, both cars are getting 64-67 dBA
I’m getting 68-72 dB on highways @ 70mph depending on road surface and it’s quite loud. I think if I could reduce down to your levels I would notice that improvement.
Though I didn't remove the front seats, I also covered under the rear floor with the dynamat, actually Noico, material and inside the roof of the trunk.
Did your car have the trunk/rear deck cutout as well?
I did have a wind noise issue on the driver's side that I mostly fixed by adding additional "D" shaped seal under the main door seal to make it stick closer to the window.
I have been tackling the wind noise since the door seals didn’t do anything to improve that. There are 2 primary areas for wind that I’m hearing. The front A pillar wind noise is coming from the rubber around the door tweeter speaker being deformed. When I tape it down so it is flush with the window, it is eliminated.

The other area is from the top back of the front windows near the B pillar. I believe I need to do what you’ve suggested with the D seal as the Top corner piece of the seal Is very soft and I don’t believe it is making tight enough of a seal.
 

Dayreg

Member
Jul 22, 2016
38
71
USA
I agree that none of the door seals or roof noise reduction kit seemed to make any difference.

Only the sound deadened car had the rear deck cutout. To completely cover that opening, I used mass loaded vinyl and closed cell foam, attached with black Gorilla tape instead of the dynamat type material. Reason being, I want to block noise from the opening instead of reducing vibration. Then I put the dynamat material on the trunk ceiling metal. I'm curious to hear your opinion on the impact of the trunk insulation mat.

IronQQQ, have you tried contacting Tesla Service with your torque question? Also, if you know anyone in your Owner's Club, someone might have the correct answer for you, in case no one on TMC knows. I'm also interested to hear about your results!
 
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WarpedOne

Supreme Premier
Supporting Member
Aug 17, 2006
4,405
7,582
Slovenia, Europe
My M3 is one of the last LR RWD. I tried all those rubber seals on the roof, doors, trunk, frunk and did not notice any difference.
Then I installed roof mesh and wow, it reduced noise above 50 mph very much.
I guess the main cause of noise is the glass roof that does not absorb any sound energy. Roof shades help with that.
 

IronQQQ

Member
Jun 11, 2019
214
328
Rancho Cucamonga, CA
Hello all, originally I was planning to put up annotated pics on how to remove the trim pieces including their anchoring points and that was about it as There isn't much info on that and this was the greatest time sump for me.

As for the bolt torque and Loctite. Don't get on the interior. I found some had gotten into the rear door interior pull.. on the vegan leather and on the plastic trim right below the window. 90% alcohol got it off the plastic with no problem but getting it off the vegan leather also ate off the matte texture. So it's smooth matte now.

As for sound deadening I think it is very subjective as everyone has different response in their ears. So far I've done the lower trunk, left quarter panels, the rear floor and installed door seals. I took dB readings from a SPL meter and also from an app. Basically no noticible difference on the meter. However wind noise kit cut those high frequency wisps. The noise is improved with the dampening mats I installed. High frequency noise has improved by my ears.

However that is subjective as everybody's ears have a different response. A real scientific test would involve recording sound at multiple responses before and after and then examining the total spectrum and at various bands. Perhaps also with accelerometers to measure the input and response at various places where dampening was installed, before and after installation. That is stuff I would do in the engineering world but we are consumers at this point and probably wouldn't do so without the expertise and hardware.

I also installed some foam strips to decouple a couple of wiring harnesses and clips that were contacting metal or plastic panels.

I see some cavities that could use some insulating materials. I have some leftover 4" thick closed cell polyurethane foam from an upholstery project I did and will cut that up to stuff into the car.

I'm convinced enough to keep going my project.

IMG_20200421_160225.jpg
IMG_20200421_160243.jpg
IMG_20200421_160234.jpg
IMG_20200425_091231.jpg
 
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Watts_Up

Active Member
Mar 4, 2019
3,713
2,691
In a galaxy far, far away
What kind of noise absorption material did you use? I can see the Noico logo, but there might be different sickness.

I recently removed the full trunk cover to increase the trunk size by lowering the trunk floor.

I build a box inside the rear sub-trunk to make the top flushing with the surrounding floor beams.

This gives me an extra 6" of height, something I needed because I installed a spare tire under the speaker shelf.
 

Chris88

Member
Feb 24, 2020
55
14
Regina
Hmm made a mistake with the thread title. Should be "Model 3 Front Seat Bolt Torque"

I unbolted and moved the fronts seats to install some deadening mat. Surprisingly it took 70-80 ft-lb to break and loosen the bolts holding the front seats. This is a scary amount of torque to be applied to M10x1.5 threads via a T45 head.

The bolts were held in with Loctite Red (271) which require heat to loosen. Over kill for the front seats.

Does anybody know what torque to re-torque the bolts too? I think it should probably be in the 25-30 ft-lb range?

I will use blue loctite instead.
View attachment 535984
View attachment 535985
Tesla EPC - Item 10 is the bolt
View attachment 535986

Appears that Tesla call the one time use fasteners. 33.5 Nm torque specs
 

PNWLeccy

Active Member
Jul 11, 2019
1,304
1,130
Seattle
I'm convinced enough to keep going my project.
I've seen a few examples of these projects where the dB measurements don't necessarily show an improvement in noise levels but people hear a difference in the noise frequency. I'm not an expert at all but from what I've read the butyl sound deadening (noico, kilmat, dynamat,etc.) reduces the reverberations in the sheet metal and you need to use CCF and MLV on top to reduce the sound further. However, these are heavy, expensive, etc., etc. so it's all about the time/benefit ratio.

I'll probably only apply sound deadening as you have done so I'll be interested to hear about the rest of your project. I hope you post some more updates!
 
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needp3d-

Member
Jan 30, 2020
184
46
los angeles
My M3 is one of the last LR RWD. I tried all those rubber seals on the roof, doors, trunk, frunk and did not notice any difference.
Then I installed roof mesh and wow, it reduced noise above 50 mph very much.
I guess the main cause of noise is the glass roof that does not absorb any sound energy. Roof shades help with that.
which roof mesh did you install? if you don't mind I ask
 

IronQQQ

Member
Jun 11, 2019
214
328
Rancho Cucamonga, CA
Appears that Tesla call the one time use fasteners. 33.5 Nm torque specs

thanks!

While torquing with my torque wrench, 25 ft-lb (33.5 N-m) felt about right and I set them to 25 ft-lb.

Interesting how they are single use. I didn't inspect the bolts for any grade marking, but the fasteners go into a tapped steel structure. I would think the bolts are significantly harder then the steel structure. i didn't measure, but visually it appears to be only 1D (1 diameter) thread engagement, meaning the thread bearing area is the same for bolt and structure. If the steel structure is softer than the bolt, there larger chance to deform the structure threads. Perhaps the steel structure should be single use only? Body structure to be replaced at each bolt removal? =)
 
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IronQQQ

Member
Jun 11, 2019
214
328
Rancho Cucamonga, CA
What kind of noise absorption material did you use? I can see the Noico logo, but there might be different sickness.

I recently removed the full trunk cover to increase the trunk size by lowering the trunk floor.

I build a box inside the rear sub-trunk to make the top flushing with the surrounding floor beams.

This gives me an extra 6" of height, something I needed because I installed a spare tire under the speaker shelf.

Noico 80 mil only. I used Noico finishing tape (2 mil thick, wide temperature range, Noico doesn't specify range). When I ran out of finishing tape, I bought 3M 3350 Aluminum foil tape. That's 1.4 mil thick and rated for -40 F to 300 F (-40 to 149 C). Both tapes are acrylic adhesive. 3M tape was 50% cheaper and is more easily purchased.
 
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IronQQQ

Member
Jun 11, 2019
214
328
Rancho Cucamonga, CA
I've seen a few examples of these projects where the dB measurements don't necessarily show an improvement in noise levels but people hear a difference in the noise frequency. I'm not an expert at all but from what I've read the butyl sound deadening (noico, kilmat, dynamat,etc.) reduces the reverberations in the sheet metal and you need to use CCF and MLV on top to reduce the sound further. However, these are heavy, expensive, etc., etc. so it's all about the time/benefit ratio.

I'll probably only apply sound deadening as you have done so I'll be interested to hear about the rest of your project. I hope you post some more updates!

I agree. The overall SPL level matters, but so does the frequency. Reducing a certain frequency may only reduce the total energy (SPL) minusculely (is that a word?) but can reduce the noise at the just the right frequency that aggravates your ears. As each of us have different respondes to frequencies (especially as we age), the perceived effect may or may not be apparent. Even in the Tesla Bjorn video, Pawel heard a huge difference, but Bjorn couldn't register much. I hear a lot more things in my car than my wife.. as her ears are less sensitive.

I'm also not certain which dB weighting would be most applicable to automotive cabin. A, B, C, D or Z????

A long long time ago, I worked on a project on a ventilation fan used on a some sort of personnel vehicle. The occupants complained of the frequency.. so we redesigned the fan to reduce a certain frequency. I recall the overall SPL levels only reducing a decibel or two, but as the reducing the agitating sound, the objective was accomplished.

Noico is relatively cheap and easy to apply so I will go that route... but I have other cheap things I want to do. stuffing closed foam in cavities (which I already have laying around the house) and isolating vibrating harnesses which is cheap and easy when the car is apart. I want to reduce rattling in the rear deck lid as well.

I will probably get the sun window mesh as well... was planning on buying it anyways to reduce the sun on my head.
 

PNWLeccy

Active Member
Jul 11, 2019
1,304
1,130
Seattle
Even in the Tesla Bjorn video, Pawel heard a huge difference, but Bjorn couldn't register much. I hear a lot more things in my car than my wife.. as her ears are less sensitive.
Funny, I was just rewatching that video to hear the change rather than reading people's report of drop in dB. I think the frequency change improved it but it was a pretty extensive job that was done. Every drive I go on with my wife I point out the sound I'm hearing from the back, a slight rattle, buzzing sound, and she just shrugs and tells me she can't hear anything - to me it's so clear!

I'm also not certain which dB weighting would be most applicable to automotive cabin. A, B, C, D or Z????
I'm pretty sure dBa is what mimics the human ears perception of the sound

I want to reduce rattling in the rear deck lid as well.
I've already taken apart the C pillars and put felt tape on every plastic contact that was making contact to see if that was it. I've also stuffed a blanket into the rear deck hole and put painters tape all over the speaker grill to see if that was it. None of it has eliminated the noise i'm hearing so I'll dismantle it all when I put the kilmat on and hopefully that will do it.

If you discover anything specific, let me know!
 

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