Model 3 Motors VS Model S/X motors

[juanmedina]

On yesterdays earning calls it was mentioned that the Tesla semi is going to have the Model 3 motors:

a lot” of parts with the Model 3, including the new motors made for the upcoming $35,000 all-electric sedan

This leads me to believe that they are next generations motors; designed for extreme durability and efficiency. Priced lower because of production volumes.

I wonder if they are better then the Model S/X motors however not as powerful....

What do you guys think?

 

[boaterva]

Ah, ah.. nothing is 'next generation' tech, except the batteries.. Elon hath decreed that!

Seriously, that's a good point. Perhaps they are easier to install, easier to gang together? They are probably 'next' something, since they are at least a year or so newer, right?

 

[wallet.dat]

IIRC the 3 uses an iteration of the S's front motor. However, for the P variant of the 3 it's still unknown (afaik) whether it will employ the larger rear motor out of the Model S PXXX.

 

[JeffK]

IIRC the 3 uses an iteration of the S's front motor. However, for the P variant of the 3 it's still unknown (afaik) whether it will employ the larger rear motor out of the Model S PXXX.

Here's a quote from JB:

We’re inventing a whole new platform: it’s a new battery architecture, it’s a new motor technology — brand new vehicle structure...

 

[animorph]

They could just be cheaper to manufacture.

 

[gregincal]

Ah, ah.. nothing is 'next generation' tech, except the batteries.. Elon hath decreed that!

I know you're partly joking, but what he said was that all the new technology was centered around manufacturing efficiency with no new user visible features, not that there would be no new technology (far from it).

 

[JeffK]

They could just be cheaper to manufacture.

This is most likely... and then there's that strange permanent magnet supplier story out of China.

 

[boaterva]

I know you're partly joking, but what he said was that all the new technology was centered around manufacturing efficiency with no new user visible features, not that there would be no new technology (far from it).

Yep, looking at it from the 'user can't see it', it definitely could be new. And, I agree, the motors would be something you would expect to be a newer generation on the 3. As is so often the case, I think the 'no new user-facing tech' was an overstatement.

 

[Swampgator]

We also tend to forget that any new tech advanced in M3 will most likely be deployed in MS around the time of M3 launch. So, TECHNICALLY Elon will be correct in stating that the MS will always have the latest tech.
We already know this holds true for the 2170 tech, but I would imagine if they have found a way to make a more efficient or lighter motor that is just as powerful, this will also be placed into MS and MX right about the time of M3 production.

 

[JeffK]

We already know this holds true for the 2170 tech

As far as I know the Model S/X will still have 18650s through the end of 2017 as per their contract with Panasonic.

 

[eSpiritIV]

Basically i remember reading that the M3 motors are wound in house.The inverts are designed in house as well. The original MS motors and roadster i think were shelf bought units.

 

[miimura]

Basically i remember reading that the M3 motors are wound in house.The inverts are designed in house as well. The original MS motors and roadster i think were shelf bought units.

No.

 

[S3XY]

Yep, looking at it from the 'user can't see it', it definitely could be new. And, I agree, the motors would be something you would expect to be a newer generation on the 3. As is so often the case, I think the 'no new user-facing tech' was an overstatement.

I agree, I think he mainly meant to head off all of the HUD discussions. That doesn't mean there wasn't improvements made to the motors.

 

[Swampgator]

JeffK,

I have read that as well, but I really think Tesla will start 2170s in Ms and MX around M3 launch time.
Elon has said over and over again that MS and MX will always be the technology leaders.
Also, Panasonic at this point will do whatever Tesla wants to do. They produce the 2170s as well.

 

[JeffK]

JeffK,

I have read that as well, but I really think Tesla will start 2170s in Ms and MX around M3 launch time.
Elon has said over and over again that MS and MX will always be the technology leaders.
Also, Panasonic at this point will do whatever Tesla wants to do. They produce the 2170s as well.

It's possible, but I'd wonder if they actually should. That's over 100,000 extra battery packs when they are still trying to ramp up 2170 production for Model 3 at the gigafactory. Keep in mind 2170 mass production for Model 3 hasn't even started, the 2170s they are making right now are for the powerwall and a different chemistry.

I think the press would be all over that if all of a sudden they can't meet Model 3 goals because they decided to change up a design on the Model S/X that didn't need to be changed right at that moment.

If they provide better charging capabilities we might see them on both right away otherwise, there's no pressing reason to switch besides saving costs. The Model 3 has new door handles, but we won't be seeing those on the Model S/X.

 

[sandpiper]

On yesterdays earning calls it was mentioned that the Tesla semi is going to have the Model 3 motors:

a lot” of parts with the Model 3, including the new motors made for the upcoming $35,000 all-electric sedan

This leads me to believe that they are next generations motors; designed for extreme durability and efficiency. Priced lower because of production volumes.

I wonder if they are better then the Model S/X motors however not as powerful....

What do you guys think?

Assuming that Tesla is still going with a 3 phase AC motor, I don't know how they could be much "better". This is 100+ year old technology; these motors are very efficient (90%+), and any design improvements in the basic motor would be pretty incremental, I think.

There mayu be some opportunities in the way that the accessories (gearbox, inverter, cooling) motor/inverter/gearbox are integrated with the motor. And doubtless there are improvements possible in the manufacturing process.

 

[Saghost]

JeffK,

I have read that as well, but I really think Tesla will start 2170s in Ms and MX around M3 launch time.
Elon has said over and over again that MS and MX will always be the technology leaders.
Also, Panasonic at this point will do whatever Tesla wants to do. They produce the 2170s as well.

Getting the launch right is very important to Tesla, so I don't think they'll increase the risks by rolling out a 2170 pack for the S/X until they have 3 production stable at substantial rates.

Having said that, I do expect them to start making 2170 packs for the S/X late this year or early next year - the cost savings appear to be significant, and it'll let them increase capacity again.

If I remember right, part of the rationale for 2170 was that the existing machinery can be adapted to build it, and I'm sure Panasonic would rather sell twice as many 2170 cells instead of sticking with 18650 contract terms.

 

[Saghost]

Assuming that Tesla is still going with a 3 phase AC motor, I don't know how they could be much "better". This is 100+ year old technology; these motors are very efficient (90%+), and any design improvements in the basic motor would be pretty incremental, I think.

There mayu be some opportunities in the way that the accessories (gearbox, inverter, cooling) motor/inverter/gearbox are integrated with the motor. And doubtless there are improvements possible in the manufacturing process.

With both the motor and inverter in house, they could easily go to a higher phase count for smoother transitions.

However, I suspect most of the improvements are from that last line - not motors that are significantly more capable or efficient, but motors that are much cheaper to build.

 

[S3XY]

It's possible, but I'd wonder if they actually should. That's over 100,000 extra battery packs when they are still trying to ramp up 2170 production for Model 3 at the gigafactory. Keep in mind 2170 mass production for Model 3 hasn't even started, the 2170s they are making right now are for the powerwall and a different chemistry.

I think the press would be all over that if all of a sudden they can't meet Model 3 goals because they decided to change up a design on the Model S/X that didn't need to be changed right at that moment.

If they provide better charging capabilities we might see them on both right away otherwise, there's no pressing reason to switch besides saving costs. The Model 3 has new door handles, but we won't be seeing those on the Model S/X.

I agree with your point but the door handles aren't a valid example. The Model S handles are more technically advanced than the M3's.

 

[22522]

Someone said the 3 motor was being used in some lower performance versions of the S today.