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Model 3 On-board AC Charger, do you mind?

Discussion in 'Model 3' started by emir-t, Dec 23, 2016.

?

Do you care about the onboard AC charger?

  1. Yes (EU)

    20.7%
  2. No (EU)

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  3. Yes (US)

    67.2%
  4. No(US)

    12.1%
  1. emir-t

    emir-t Member

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    I think the answer for this will vary largely depending on where it's coming from hence the options. (EU vs US)

    I'm one to believe that a car's on-board AC charger makes a lot of difference. It doesn't matter if long distance driving is DC fast charging (it is), AC charging makes a big difference when you consider how abundant it is. Speaking from a EU-grid framework, 3 phase plugs are virtually everywhere if you look around and they have a minimum of 11kW power. (16A * 3)

    32A 3 phase plugs have 22kW of power which is 110km/h for the Model S but it will be 135-140km/h for the Model 3 which is really, really good.

    Most EV manufacturers shy away from a high speed on board charger I think because of the costs involved but for me they really do make a huge difference. For example the new Hyundai Ioniq has a 25kWh battery whereas the new Renault ZOE has 41kWh however Ioniq's charger is only single phase 7kW and ZOE's is a minimum of 22. If it wasn't for the 22kW charging ability I never would have considered the ZOE and get the Ioniq despite a much smaller battery. Yet, same as the Bolt EV (Ampera-e) 7kW charging isn't much. My country has nowhere near a developed DC charging network but three phase plugs are everywhere so it makes a big, big difference.

    I think everyone focuses on the battery pack capacity, overlooking the replenishment rate of it a.k.a. charging. After spending a year and a half with a 3.7kW on board charger EV and seeing how 3 phase 11-22kW plugs (40A-80A plugs for US) are everywhere, I can't wait for a 22kW charger. Those plugs will feel like a fricking Supercharger. (poor country's Supercharger, lol)

    My concern is because Model 3 must be kept cheap, Tesla could shy away from such a charger saying; "just supercharge". They have already taken a step back with the Model X and facelift Model S by reducing max. possible AC charging from 22kW to 16kW.

    What are your thoughts?
     
    • Like x 1
  2. JeffK

    JeffK Well-Known Member

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    Considering AC is most efficient for power distribution and it's common nearly every place that's electrified, I'm pretty sure you're going to find that most people are going to care about having an on-board AC charger.

    You only other options are carrying around an external AC inverter, or being at the mercy of DC charging stations which might be free or might cost an arm and a leg compared to gasoline.

    I'd rather just charge at home with an onboard AC charger and if in a pinch at a destination I can always plug into a low current AC source.
     
  3. emir-t

    emir-t Member

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    I meant having a fast AC charger, a.k.a. 22kW (or a 80A 240V US, 32A 3 phase 400V EU) Of course it will have an AC charger but a 4-7kW charger would be a big drawback IMHO.
     
  4. S'toon

    S'toon Knows where his towel is

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    First of all, most people don't live withing a convenient driving distance of a Supercharger. So not having an onboard charger will screw most people.

    Tesla spreads superchargers out, because they specifically state that they're for long distance travel, not local charging.

    Also, Tesla starting next year will start charging for supercharger use after a specific amount of KWh to curb abusing the superchargers.

    As a matter of fact, since Tesla has no intention so far of building any superchargers within driving distance of here I'm leaning towards canceling my reservation. No superchargers, no convenient road trips. It'd be a 2 day trip the wrong way just to get to the Supercharger network.
     
  5. JeffK

    JeffK Well-Known Member

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    On a Tesla you get dual chargers no matter what, it's software limited to one.

    Tesla is not like other manufacturers who simply don't install it at all.
     
  6. emir-t

    emir-t Member

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    Not really. Pre facelift S's had an 11kW default charger that got a hardware upgrade to dual chargers if opted so.

    Early X's had what you are talking about. X&S produced after February w/o the fast charger option are actually slow 11kw ones. People who upgraded to 16,5kW got hardware changes even. I remember reading some findings of @Ingineer about it.

    So in short 2016 faclift S and Model X was a step back from dual charger 22kW capability. I hope Model 3 doesn't take it another step backwards with cost worries in mind.
     
  7. JeffK

    JeffK Well-Known Member

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    You can visit the design studio right now....
    It says: "Enable after delivery $1900" meaning the hardware is bundled with the car.

    I'm too lazy to check the site for European market right now but that's at least for the US one.
     
  8. strykeroz

    strykeroz Member

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    Here's hoping including a better AC charger on-board their highest volume model will drive the costs down and allow them to include it across the range. I don't hear complaints from S/X owners about the newer ones being slower, but surely it's not ideal.

    FWIW my vote would have been Yes (Other) ;)
     
  9. emir-t

    emir-t Member

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    They already have quite the volume for chargers. They produced around 90,000 cars for the year, let's assume all are equipped with new faster single chargers. They've installed around 1100 new stalls of Superchargers in 2016 too. That makes 550 banks and that needs 6600 chargers.

    So overall plus/minus 100k chargers. That's as far as it goes for charger demand in the world IMHO. Also consider they're producing them so it is something else they need to ramp up.
     
  10. Saghost

    Saghost Active Member

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    The other way to look at it is that they increased the capability of the standard onboard charger installed in every car by 20%.

    No telling what they'll do with the 3, but my first guess is that they'll use the same charger module the S and X have - they're already building a ton of them (they use them in the Superchargers, too, in banks of 12,) and so economies of scale in manufacturing them will likely outweigh the savings involved in making a cheaper lower capacity design after the costs of designing and testing a new version are considered.
     
  11. Garlan Garner

    Garlan Garner Well-Known Member

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    OP. Your question and Response options don't match.

    I'm not sure what you are asking, however I want the largest charger Tesla has to offer installed on my M3.
     
  12. ItsNotAboutTheMoney

    ItsNotAboutTheMoney Well-Known Member

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    BEVs charge slowly so BEVs can only work at large scale with overnight charging. The cheapest form of overnight charging is charging at home. The most abundant available charging is AC sockets outside homes and in home garages.

    The only way they could eliminate onboard AC is to have a portable AC-DC EVSE and I think that that's just not going to happen.

    AC has better economics at small scale, but DC has better economics at larger scale, so I do think that general public charging will end up being entirely DC, and AC will be used for home charging, and for "inclusive" destination charging (where some other system limits access to the chargers).
     
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  13. Topher

    Topher Energy Curmudgeon

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    How aren't those the same thing?

    Thank you kindly.
     
  14. JeffK

    JeffK Well-Known Member

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    The vast majority of EVSE's are not inverters to convert AC to DC. The ones for home typically feed AC into the onboard charger.

    They aren't the same thing because with a normal EVSE the inverter is still internal to the car whereas a portable (external) AC-DC EVSE would be by definition external.

    To your point though, the internal charger is portable as it travels with the car so it's basically the same thing and probably more convenient haha.
     
  15. ItsNotAboutTheMoney

    ItsNotAboutTheMoney Well-Known Member

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    A standard EVSE is a power control device. It doesn't do any conversion.

    The charger in the car performs the AC/DC conversion.

    They could, theoretically, have a single device that can be both EVSE and charger (like having a modem-router).

    If DC charging were as fast as filling a gas tank, the difference in the market economics would make a portable EVSE much more of an option.
     
  16. tga

    tga Supporting Member

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    Wrong. I made the same assertion in another thread and was corrected.

    48/72amp Charger - Longevity, Best Practice, Durability, Failure Rate, etc.
    Did anyone upgrade from 48 to 72 Amps?

    It may say "enable" in the design studio, but the charger options (currently) use different hardware with different part numbers. A service center visit is required to upgrade; it's not an OTA software update.
     
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  17. JeffK

    JeffK Well-Known Member

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  18. tga

    tga Supporting Member

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    Agreed, it is a bit misleading/confusing as is.
     
  19. Canuck

    Canuck Well-Known Member

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    Tesla has already gone from 80 amps down to 72 amps which is a big step backwards in my opinion.
     
  20. garsh

    garsh Re Member

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    In reality, it's a 10% step backwards. :p
     
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