Model 3 Only 1 Screen Officially

[ikjadoon]

I disagree with your use of the word "common" in this context. I have driven my S over 55K miles since taking delivery in December 2013. I estimate that my drivers display has spontaneously rebooted while driving maybe 5 times. During those 5 times the car of course drove normally, I had no concerns. My center display has spontaneously rebooted or "froze" and then I manually rebooted it maybe a dozen times in 55K miles of driving. Of course that also does not effect the safe operation of the vehicle.

In my experience, spontaneous display reboots are rare as a function of miles driven and they do not effect the safety or operation of the vehicle as long as driver is paying attention, as of course they should be.

OK, right: that's 5 losses of the speedometer over 55k miles. My current car, far cheaper than a Model 3, has over 70k miles and I've never lost my speedometer. Ever.

Absolutely. It's a loss of safety in my mind, though: I can't see what Autopilot is sensing, I can't see any errors (tire pressure, airbags, battery errors), I don't know if my turn signals are operating (maybe the clicks are enough?), etc.

How many losses of these functions are acceptable in a car? What's the limit? Maybe we have different limits.

 

[sparkypete]

An alternative to HUD would be to have a display on the steering wheel like on F1 cars. Still not ideal as not line of sight but at least it's in front of you.

I can't imaging Tesla would mess this up. For a hundred bucks you can buy a sat nav that shows speed via GPS and stick it on your windscreen (and spoil that nice clean design). Surely the budget will stretch to some kind of speed readout in front of you.

 

[ecarfan]

But if it happens just once..just once, if you lose Speedo, turn signal lights, PRND...that's enough to hurt confidence significantly.

Again...a display going dark and then rebooting does not effect how the car drives, in my experience. The first time it happened to me I was surprised but then almost instantly realized that the car was still driving normally and I had control. The second time it happened (probably thousands of miles and many weeks if not a few months later) I was unconcerned. Not being able to see my speed indicator for a few seconds is no big deal. Not being able to see what PRND I am in? I already knew that and don't need to check it every few seconds. If I wanted to use the turn signal indicator, the turn signal lights still work. All the essential driving controls still work.

I appreciate your concern about this scenario. But a screen rebooting sounds much worse than it actually is. And it is clear based on what Elon and Tesla have stated that the 3 will have only one display. If the market rejects the car based on that, then Tesla will have made a major error. But almost 400,000 people do not seem to be overly concerned about it. Yes, some Model 3 reservation holders have expressed concerns. We will know by the end of this year if their concerns were justified or not.

 

[dsvick]

There is no driver sitting in a car that is autonomous. Why show him/her information?
Who is EAP? What information is actually required (source if possible)?

Until full autonomy is finalized and legalized there will certainly be driver in the seat. I'd bet that even full autonomy will require a driver in the seat.

EAP is enhanced autopilot. If nothing else it would be nice to know what the system is seeing and, at the very least, get an "I just saved your life" message from the car if it ever slams on the brakes.

 

[arnis]

I mean, I'd really appreciate if restarting the screen didn't kill the speedo. That's the level of isolation that would make me feel safer.

It is actually possible to do it. Let's assume drivetrain control module feeds information directly into GPU of the screen. And what is actually restarted is the center screen computer (it's not the screen that actually freezes, it's the software).

So it will look like this for a moment:

But, as far as safety goes. Speedometer has nothing to do with actual safety. I've driven with my BMW without speedo cluster connected. Absolutely possible and nothing "unsafe" is actually happening. It's not like driver loses eyesight for few minutes.


I'd bet that even full autonomy will require a driver in the seat.

EAP is enhanced autopilot. If nothing else it would be nice to know what the system is seeing and, at the very least, get an "I just saved your life" message from the car if it ever slams on the brakes.

Definitely not. Only one driver can be present. And it's the narrow AI Tesla will have.
"Would be nice to see" is just something nice. Can be done with 15" screen. Those "I saved your life" things will happen every minute with AP2. Each and every time red light is ahead and you watch netflix on your phone. No need to see what system sees. Just look out of the windows.

 

[S3XY]

I'm trying to imagine what Elon, as a visionary, thinks about the existence of speedo clusters.

In case of huge, horizontally positioned LCD that is closer to drivers field of vision (left upper edge) than on Model S, I can't see technical reasons why Model 3 SHOULD have another display device (HUD/LCD) closer to the windshield. And the more autopilot advances, the less and less it is actually needed. There are some things that can and should be resolved, like blind spot warning. Either LED-s in the side mirrors or steering wheel vibration/torque + sound is enough for safety rating points.

A HUD would display past the windshield, out in front of the car and in your normal focal range for driving, not near the windshield. And you're right, when autopilot reaches level 5 autonomy a HUD would be unnecessary. But until that time a HUD is actually needed even MORE than if there was no autonomy at all. For a "driver" to trust lower level autonomous driving they'll require feedback about what AP "sees" and is responding to. Otherwise the driver would constantly intervene.

I see no reason to display time, outside temperature, battery temperature, state of charge, gear selection, tire pressure, vehicles overall mileage, power/regen value, trip time, trip distance, average fuel economy, vehicles around etc EXTREMELY close to windshield. People spend more time looking at their smartphone screen rather than speed.

Right, and no one thinks that. But what would be very helpful to have on a HUD is navigation and autopilot cues. This video explains it well. It's rather long but what I'm referring to begins around 2:15.

If HUD will be available, it will definitely be a Premium option. It will DEFINITELY not have another set of brains. Information can be mirrored directly from main screen in simplified form. I'm not even sure I want it. For 300€ yes definitely, for 1000€ no. But HUD requires special windshield option.

What the prototype had:

What is needed to make it legal:

I would only change PRND - absolutely pointless to show all possible values at the same time.
Also I would display P in place of speed if P is actually engaged.

What should driver do to be a better pilot (or copilot) look on the road! not RPM, battery temperature, range, miles driven, vehicle mileage, time, power output, ecometer/how many trees you've saved and all kind of utter garbage.
For random low priority information (windshield washer fluid low, tire pressure error etc) there is definitely no point to make another display near windshield/on windshield.

I would also add that upper edge of 15" LCD looks to be very close to windshield from eye level. Even closer than Model S speedo. The only difference is that it is reachable and that it can be seen not inside the steering wheel but rather above right hand which is on the steering wheel. Which allows Tesla to design more appropriate wheel

Agreed! (see my first response) And a HUD would help them to do that by not requiring them to look down and to the right. And there's no need to put unnecessary information on the HUD like RPM, etc. That would just be a distraction. The effectiveness of a HUD is entirely dependent upon how well it's implemented.

 

[strider]

I have been driving BMWs with HUD (one of the best HUD implementation) for many years. It is optional for me.
And I can't see it with my polarized sunglasses on anyways. So yeah, while it is nice to have HUDs, I don't miss it when I can't see it with my sunglasses on.

Weird. My 2006 Corvette HUD worked just fine w/ polarized sunglasses. It wasn't fancy but it gave you the information you needed (rpm, speed, turn signals, etc) in your line of sight.

 

[Model 3]

Because the floating screen had made 2 previous appearances. And never made it to production S or X.

Sorry but no. It was only in the X prototype, but was always integrated on the S prototype.

 

[ModelNforNerd]

There is no driver sitting in a car that is autonomous. Why show him/her information?
Who is EAP? What information is actually required (source if possible)?

Autonomous doesn't mean empty. Just means the vehicle is independently performing all functions of driving.

 

[ModelNforNerd]

Sorry but no. It was only in the X prototype, but was always integrated on the S prototype.

Batting .500 still gets you in the hall of fame.

 

[lunitiks]

Silicon valley, Autopilot-forefront, brand building Tesla: Why on earth would they ditch that simple but beautiful, highly recognizable AUTOPILOT DISPLAY that all S and X have in their IC?

It shows your lane, your car ahead, your speed limit, whether or not you're TACCin', Auto-Steer'in or approachin' a road barrier

I believe in HUD

 

[S3XY]

Batting .500 still gets you in the hall of fame.

And a .500 GPA gets you kicked out of college.

 

[gregincal]

OK, right: that's 5 losses of the speedometer over 55k miles. My current car, far cheaper than a Model 3, has over 70k miles and I've never lost my speedometer. Ever.

Absolutely. It's a loss of safety in my mind, though: I can't see what Autopilot is sensing, I can't see any errors (tire pressure, airbags, battery errors), I don't know if my turn signals are operating (maybe the clicks are enough?), etc.

How many losses of these functions are acceptable in a car? What's the limit? Maybe we have different limits.

I think you should give up on the idea of getting a Tesla then, because they are never going to have physical instruments. How would you ever even display autopilot information on anything but a screen?

 

[stopcrazypp]

I'd expect most sane people with the $1,000 and awareness of the release knew about the company prior, have seen or driven a Tesla and realize the interiors were not the finished product. They expect refinements to come. I think many are just holding their spot in line to have the option hoping the interior suits them.

Edit: The Model-X Alpha had a floating screen as well. Didn't last then, I expect the 3's to be flush as well.
View attachment 216156

There's a couple things that changed that make it more likely the Model 3 will keep a floating screen:

The S/X screens are pretty similar (same 17 inch, portrait orientation). Model 3 will use a 15 inch landscape orientation and does not need to consider sharing a similar design to older screens (given totally different platform).

The Model 3 dash and front seat position is pushed forward in the car in order to maximize legroom. If you look at the design of the screen, it is away from the dash and toward the driver, such that the entire screen is floating. This is different from the Model X alpha, where it is pretty much on the same plane as the dash (only the top half is floating, bottom is already flush).
What It's Like to Ride in a Tesla Model 3

The positioning of the screen closer to driver serves two purposes: account for a further forward dash position and to have the speedometer larger and more visible in the field of view (given there is only one screen).

So to make the Model 3 screen flush, if they keep in same position, they either have to add a surround or move entire dash forward (which would seem to be more expensive). Or they have to push it toward the dash away from driver (which may cost less, but compromises the design decision made above).

 

[Topher]

There is no driver sitting in a car that is autonomous. Why show him/her information?
Who is EAP? What information is actually required (source if possible)?

1) Because no one will turn it on unless they are confident that it works.

2) EAP = Enhanced Auto Pilot. Look it up on the Tesla website, and consider what you would need to feel confident handing part of the control of the car over to it.

Thank you kindly.

 

[ikjadoon]

I think you should give up on the idea of getting a Tesla then, because they are never going to have physical instruments. How would you ever even display autopilot information on anything but a screen?

Thankfully, Elon Musk doesn't think like that. At 19:30.

>So I think that’s an important thing to do, and then also to really pay attention to negative feedback, and solicit it, particularly from friends. This may sound like simple advice, but hardly anyone does that, and it’s incredibly helpful.

Asking for speedometers to work as reliably they have the past 15 years...is not a high bar. Nobody said they should move to physical instruments. Who said that? Who are you replying to? Where is it shown that physical instruments are more reliable than digital instruments? Where are you getting these points from? I'd like some sources.

All I have said is that, to increase mass market consumer confidence, the speedometer (and Autopilot information, etc.) would be best on a dedicated as-close-as-failsafe-as-possible viewing area. There's no issue with digital screens and, out of personal preference, I'd not want any physical instruments in the Model 3.

See arnis' mock-up image above--in my mind, that gives a stronger feeling of comfort and reliability and confidence.

See this video:

18 seconds until the reboot can begin and then 12 seconds to reboot. Again, like the previous owner mentioned, not the end of the world. But this is something that should be reliable and shouldn't be ever freezing/resetting.

Nobody's claiming a single screen is going to significantly hurt the Model 3's reception, but I think it's a key point to be wary of when the Model 3 launches: are there further reliabilities in the screen/UI/OS to avoid these mishaps? What failsafe measures have been implemented?

 

[CricTic]

OK, so, a couple of things:

A lot of people have brought up the Prius as an example of the case where a center screen can work. Note that even though it is centrally mounted, Toyota actually uses a dedicated display for key driving functions like speed and fuel. The "center screen" is actually mounted directly below that binnacle and is used for HVAC, media, etc. This is important because you don't want passengers obscuring the view to things like speed while they are futzing with the music, temperature, etc.

No other newish car I've ever seen currently lacks a dedicated driver binnacle for speed, fuel, etc ... and arguably the Prius doesn't either, even though it's more centrally mounted than most. Certainly no driver's car does ... I thought the Fiat and Mini Cooper did, but I just checked and both cars have dedicated driver gauges for speed, fuel level, etc. This is important because Tesla leaders (Elon and JB for sure) have stated clearly in the past that they want to make cars for drivers, that people actually WANT to drive, that also happen to be safer and cheaper to operate due to autonomous capabilities. They are not interested in making driverless pod cars (at least in the near term). Additionally, since laws are likely to lag technology by a few years within the US and around the world, Tesla vehicles will need to cater to the needs and wants of drivers for a few more years.

So it would be crazy if Teslas lacked a basic display mechanism for speed, charge level, etc that was separate from the central display, since most drivers consider that to be table stakes today. You'll also need something to display the status of driver aids like Autopilot and AEB. This could take the form of a basic digital instrument binnacle, or a HUD. I REALLY hope it's one of those two, because Elon's comment this week about only one screen in the vehicle worried me a little. I know a lot of people signed up for the car without seeing one of these equipped in the demo cars (myself included) but I think many of us are assuming that this was coming in a later reveal given Tesla's statement at the time that the interior was unfinished.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Thankfully, Elon Musk doesn't think like that. At 19:30.

>So I think that’s an important thing to do, and then also to really pay attention to negative feedback, and solicit it, particularly from friends. This may sound like simple advice, but hardly anyone does that, and it’s incredibly helpful.

Asking for speedometers to work as reliably they have the past 15 years...is not a high bar. Nobody said they should move to physical instruments. Who said that? Who are you replying to? Where is it shown that physical instruments are more reliable than digital instruments? Where are you getting these points from? I'd like some sources.

All I have said is that, to increase mass market consumer confidence, the speedometer (and Autopilot information, etc.) would be best on a dedicated as-close-as-failsafe-as-possible viewing area. There's no issue with digital screens and, out of personal preference, I'd not want any physical instruments in the Model 3.

See arnis' mock-up image above--in my mind, that gives a stronger feeling of comfort and reliability and confidence.

See this video:

18 seconds until the reboot can begin and then 12 seconds to reboot. Again, like the previous owner mentioned, not the end of the world. But this is something that should be reliable and shouldn't be ever freezing/resetting.

Nobody's claiming a single screen is going to significantly hurt the Model 3's reception, but I think it's a key point to be wary of when the Model 3 launches: are there further reliabilities in the screen/UI/OS to avoid these mishaps? What failsafe measures have been implemented?

I think his gist is your previous vehicle had physical instruments and pretty much physical instruments are the only type which would not need a "reboot" and a failure of a single dial would not necessarily mean a total failure of the whole cluster.

 

[Sonny Daze]

Single horizontal screen:

 

[stopcrazypp]

OK, so, a couple of things:

A lot of people have brought up the Prius as an example of the case where a center screen can work. Note that even though it is centrally mounted, Toyota actually uses a dedicated display for key driving functions like speed and fuel. The "center screen" is actually mounted directly below that binnacle and is used for HVAC, media, etc. This is important because you don't want passengers obscuring the view to things like speed while they are futzing with the music, temperature, etc.

No other newish car I've ever seen currently lacks a dedicated driver binnacle for speed, fuel, etc ... and arguably the Prius doesn't either, even though it's more centrally mounted than most. Certainly no driver's car does ... I thought the Fiat and Mini Cooper did, but I just checked and both cars have dedicated driver gauges for speed, fuel level, etc. This is important because Tesla leaders (Elon and JB for sure) have stated clearly in the past that they want to make cars for drivers, that people actually WANT to drive, that also happen to be safer and cheaper to operate due to autonomous capabilities. They are not interested in making driverless pod cars (at least in the near term). Additionally, since laws are likely to lag technology by a few years within the US and around the world, Tesla vehicles will need to cater to the needs and wants of drivers for a few more years.

So it would be crazy if Teslas lacked a basic display mechanism for speed, charge level, etc that was separate from the central display, since most drivers consider that to be table stakes today. You'll also need something to display the status of driver aids like Autopilot and AEB. This could take the form of a basic digital instrument binnacle, or a HUD. I REALLY hope it's one of those two, because Elon's comment this week about only one screen in the vehicle worried me a little. I know a lot of people signed up for the car without seeing one of these equipped in the demo cars (myself included) but I think many of us are assuming that this was coming in a later reveal given Tesla's statement at the time that the interior was unfinished.

People refer to Prius because it is an example that has nothing behind the steering wheel, while the cluster is in the center of the car. The Mini, on the other hand, does have gauges behind the steering wheel.

The Prius V is the closest to the Model 3 design, with the speedometer at a similar location as in the Model 3 (by this I mean when your eyes are looking toward the road, the speed is seen at a similar location). It is less wide than the standard Prius.