Honestly I dont think elon musk would say the performance version is 15% faster than a m3 and make the brakes different from one performance version to another...the car has to equally enhance braking as it does acceleration just for the simple case of idiots that are going to whoop the crap out of it and jab the brakes constantly. Otherwise the thing would be a death trap on wheels lol. But no I agree even in the red vrakes coming off the line it looked like they were not the much larger....the lower control arm is a give away of disc size and you can see it sticks out under the disk about the same as it does on a regular model 3.
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Model 3 "Performance Brake Calipers" just red or different altogether?
- Thread starter fiksegts
- Start date
Went to a Tesla store today and a manger told me the brakes are the same on the Dual Motor Performance and with the Performance Package, as currently on the Model 3 in the showroom with RWD. Only difference is the Performance Package have red calipers. For this reason, I immediately deleted the 5k Performance Package. Think 18" wheels will be smoother than 20" and I don't really want the spoiler and metal petals. I drive a 2004 Audi S4 with 18" low profile tires in the summer and put 17" rims on with winter tires. The ride is a little smoother with the 17" wheels. Willing to give up a little handling for smoother ride. Just hope the ride quality isn't much rougher than my S4.
JeffC
Member
Hi folks, I had my configuration for a Performance Model 3 (PM3) in, then downgraded it to Dual Motor. I and likely others here have one day left (during the 3 day change window) to change (back) to Performance. I had it on Performance at first but downgraded to Dual Motor, in part due to the lack of clarity about the Performance brakes. I've just changed it back to PM3 with no Performance Upgrade (PU) option per my analysis below. (Either way, I'm very happy to be ordering a Model 3 and extremely proud of the Tesla team for reaching this point.)
Reason for wanting to order PM3 without PU is to save a bit of money by skipping the spoiler, etc., in PU while buying my own 20 inch wheels with Michelin Pilot Sport 4S tires from Tire Rack for around $3k. I don't need the pedals or spoiler. I don't mind also having the Aero wheels which I'll use for at least road trips.
Comments on some questions from the thread above, plus additional analysis:
1. I configured my car on June 30 in order to capture the free Premium Connectivity (and also to hopefully get the full Federal tax credit before the phase out likely to go to 50% on January 1. It would go to 25% for Q2 2019, and then 0% for Q3 2019 and later). The folks at my Tesla store said that changing the configuration does not change the initial order date, so I keep the Premium Connectivity even if I make configuration changes within the allowed 3 day change window.
2. Tire quality. The Michelin Pilot Sport 4S is currently one of the best street tires available. Tires make a extremely significant difference in performance. They are the only interface with the road and are critically important in how any vehicle performs. For a high performance car, it's very important to get excellent and tires. The 18 or 19 inch wheels with lesser tires will not have the same level or quality of performance as the Pilot Sport 4S. (Currently it is one of the few performance tires available in the right size for 20s on the Model 3; others may arise later.) Tires all also have different subjective feel and response, purely due to engineering differences, and this affects how the car feels and how well the driver can extract maximum performance from the tires. On both objective and subjective aspects, the 4S is excellent. See tire comparisons on Tirerack.com, car magazines, etc., for example.
If you're going to get the Performance Model 3 (or any performance car, TBH) and expect to get maximum performance from it, and/or take it on a race track, you must get the best wheels and tires to be able to get the full performance. No one who is knowledgeable about performance driving, racing, etc., will find this incorrect or even controversial. It isn't.
3. Tire diameter and top speed. All of the Tesla wheel and tire combinations for a given model have nearly identical overall diameter. This is normal practice since suspensions are designed with a particular diameter (within a fairly narrow range) in mind. The smaller wheels have higher profile tires. The larger wheels have lower profile tires. The net result is a similar overall diameter across all. The top speed increase does not come from any significant diameter difference. It's a software unlock.
And no, it's extremely unlikely that any third parties would be able to hack this and unlock it for you. Control of the vehicle firmware is extremely tight, and rightfully so. None of us would want unauthorized changes that could endanger our safety. Very likely hardware encryption prevents unauthorized software or even major configuration changes from running. This is as it should be on any vehicle sold to the public.
Getting PM3 without PU probably means missing out on the top speed upgrade, but top speed isn't useful on most race tracks or most races. Most race tracks are too short to reach top speed. There are few places where top speed is legal. One is the Autobahn or other unlimited speed roads. Another is legal closed road speed events. I plan neither.
4. The rotor size does look much larger on the Performance Model with the factory 20 inch wheels that Elon tweeted. The "teeth" on the rotor hat are possibly for triggering Hall effect (wheel speed) sensors for ABS, or could be a vestigial artifact from their supplier. Larger rotors do improve brake performance for several reasons: more clamping surface area, greater leverage from the larger rotor diameter, and perhaps most importantly for repeated braking from high speeds on a race track, more heat capacity. It's unclear whether the Performance Model without the $5k Performance Upgrade (PU) option includes the larger rotors and possibly upgraded calipers. If the larger rotors fit in the 18 inch wheels, they may be included even if PU is not ordered. If they don't fit, then a Performance Model ordered without PU may not have the larger rotors.
5. The calipers may or may not be the same with or without the PU option. At a minimum PU adds red color. At a maximum, the calipers are physically different in addition to having a red finish. Caliper design can have an effect on performance, but the rotor and pads may be far more important.
If Sasha's analysis at Mountain Pass Performance is correct at MPP Page Mill 365mm Big Brake Kit then physically different calipers may be much less important than the larger rotors. In fact he may have reached the same conclusions as Tesla, since the Tesla performance rotor could indeed be Iron with an Aluminum hat. The hat appears to be Aluminum color in Elon's tweet and looks to be a different color than the rotor disc. Sasha also proved his results by coming in second place in a racing series, so his big rotor kit probably works at least adequately on the race track.
6. PM3 appears to have a lower suspension regardless of whether PU is ordered. That would make sense from a build logistics point of view. The likely suspension changes are shorter and stiffer springs, different dampers ("shock absorbers") and possibly stiffer anti-roll bars. These are all very common suspension turning items for sporty sedans like BMW M, Mercedes AMG, Audi S, etc. The lowered suspension may include varied small suspension and sensor linkages, if the Unplugged Performance pages are correct. Unplugged Performance | Tesla Model 3
7. Braking performance particularly for race track use might be improved if Tesla properly integrated regenerative braking with the brake pedal and friction brakes, as Toyota, VW/Audi/Porsche and many others do. See: Why Regenerative Braking Belongs... On The Brake Pedal
In particular, Teslas on the race track would both recover more energy and have more durable brakes, if regen were integrated with the brake pedal. That said, note that regenerative braking power is much less than friction brake power, and regen is limited at high state of charge, i.e., when the battery pack is full. (But the pack will deplete rapidly on a race track. Wouldn't be full beyond the first turn.) Friction brakes can sink on the order of a Megawatt of power. Regen, not nearly as much; possibly only 50kW, i.e. 1/20th. Friction brakes are much more powerful than regen, but regen would help on the race track. Even a 5% reduction in friction braking thanks to regen could benefit overall braking and make the friction brakes last a bit longer on a race track.
Racers disable Tesla's default high regen off throttle on the track since it upsets the balance of the car, could make trailing throttle oversteer worse, etc. Regen belongs on the brake pedal.
I doubt new Roadster would be taken seriously as a track car if Tesla does not properly integrate regen with the brake pedal.
The availability of Sasha's big rotor kit takes away most of the risk for me in ordering Performance Model without PU, so I've changed my order back to PM3 without PU. Sasha's kit is 365 mm rotor diameter, and he says it does not fit (is too large for) the 18 inch wheel, so he needs to change out rotors and caliper brackets when changing to the Aero wheels for road trips. Changing those parts is all a bolt on operation and should not be hard for anyone who works on cars.
It's possible the Tesla PM3 rotor is smaller than Sasha's and will fit both the 18 Aero and 20 inch wheels. In fact that seems the only possible answer if they're shipping the same larger rotors with both wheels. Certainly I hope it's the case that the larger rotors are included with PM3 with no PU, but if not, then I can get the larger rotors from Sasha, or possibly the less large rotors from Tesla or whoever supplies Tesla (very possibly Brembo, who have turned into one of the major OEM brake suppliers.)
Reason for wanting to order PM3 without PU is to save a bit of money by skipping the spoiler, etc., in PU while buying my own 20 inch wheels with Michelin Pilot Sport 4S tires from Tire Rack for around $3k. I don't need the pedals or spoiler. I don't mind also having the Aero wheels which I'll use for at least road trips.
Comments on some questions from the thread above, plus additional analysis:
1. I configured my car on June 30 in order to capture the free Premium Connectivity (and also to hopefully get the full Federal tax credit before the phase out likely to go to 50% on January 1. It would go to 25% for Q2 2019, and then 0% for Q3 2019 and later). The folks at my Tesla store said that changing the configuration does not change the initial order date, so I keep the Premium Connectivity even if I make configuration changes within the allowed 3 day change window.
2. Tire quality. The Michelin Pilot Sport 4S is currently one of the best street tires available. Tires make a extremely significant difference in performance. They are the only interface with the road and are critically important in how any vehicle performs. For a high performance car, it's very important to get excellent and tires. The 18 or 19 inch wheels with lesser tires will not have the same level or quality of performance as the Pilot Sport 4S. (Currently it is one of the few performance tires available in the right size for 20s on the Model 3; others may arise later.) Tires all also have different subjective feel and response, purely due to engineering differences, and this affects how the car feels and how well the driver can extract maximum performance from the tires. On both objective and subjective aspects, the 4S is excellent. See tire comparisons on Tirerack.com, car magazines, etc., for example.
If you're going to get the Performance Model 3 (or any performance car, TBH) and expect to get maximum performance from it, and/or take it on a race track, you must get the best wheels and tires to be able to get the full performance. No one who is knowledgeable about performance driving, racing, etc., will find this incorrect or even controversial. It isn't.
3. Tire diameter and top speed. All of the Tesla wheel and tire combinations for a given model have nearly identical overall diameter. This is normal practice since suspensions are designed with a particular diameter (within a fairly narrow range) in mind. The smaller wheels have higher profile tires. The larger wheels have lower profile tires. The net result is a similar overall diameter across all. The top speed increase does not come from any significant diameter difference. It's a software unlock.
And no, it's extremely unlikely that any third parties would be able to hack this and unlock it for you. Control of the vehicle firmware is extremely tight, and rightfully so. None of us would want unauthorized changes that could endanger our safety. Very likely hardware encryption prevents unauthorized software or even major configuration changes from running. This is as it should be on any vehicle sold to the public.
Getting PM3 without PU probably means missing out on the top speed upgrade, but top speed isn't useful on most race tracks or most races. Most race tracks are too short to reach top speed. There are few places where top speed is legal. One is the Autobahn or other unlimited speed roads. Another is legal closed road speed events. I plan neither.
4. The rotor size does look much larger on the Performance Model with the factory 20 inch wheels that Elon tweeted. The "teeth" on the rotor hat are possibly for triggering Hall effect (wheel speed) sensors for ABS, or could be a vestigial artifact from their supplier. Larger rotors do improve brake performance for several reasons: more clamping surface area, greater leverage from the larger rotor diameter, and perhaps most importantly for repeated braking from high speeds on a race track, more heat capacity. It's unclear whether the Performance Model without the $5k Performance Upgrade (PU) option includes the larger rotors and possibly upgraded calipers. If the larger rotors fit in the 18 inch wheels, they may be included even if PU is not ordered. If they don't fit, then a Performance Model ordered without PU may not have the larger rotors.
5. The calipers may or may not be the same with or without the PU option. At a minimum PU adds red color. At a maximum, the calipers are physically different in addition to having a red finish. Caliper design can have an effect on performance, but the rotor and pads may be far more important.
If Sasha's analysis at Mountain Pass Performance is correct at MPP Page Mill 365mm Big Brake Kit then physically different calipers may be much less important than the larger rotors. In fact he may have reached the same conclusions as Tesla, since the Tesla performance rotor could indeed be Iron with an Aluminum hat. The hat appears to be Aluminum color in Elon's tweet and looks to be a different color than the rotor disc. Sasha also proved his results by coming in second place in a racing series, so his big rotor kit probably works at least adequately on the race track.
6. PM3 appears to have a lower suspension regardless of whether PU is ordered. That would make sense from a build logistics point of view. The likely suspension changes are shorter and stiffer springs, different dampers ("shock absorbers") and possibly stiffer anti-roll bars. These are all very common suspension turning items for sporty sedans like BMW M, Mercedes AMG, Audi S, etc. The lowered suspension may include varied small suspension and sensor linkages, if the Unplugged Performance pages are correct. Unplugged Performance | Tesla Model 3
7. Braking performance particularly for race track use might be improved if Tesla properly integrated regenerative braking with the brake pedal and friction brakes, as Toyota, VW/Audi/Porsche and many others do. See: Why Regenerative Braking Belongs... On The Brake Pedal
In particular, Teslas on the race track would both recover more energy and have more durable brakes, if regen were integrated with the brake pedal. That said, note that regenerative braking power is much less than friction brake power, and regen is limited at high state of charge, i.e., when the battery pack is full. (But the pack will deplete rapidly on a race track. Wouldn't be full beyond the first turn.) Friction brakes can sink on the order of a Megawatt of power. Regen, not nearly as much; possibly only 50kW, i.e. 1/20th. Friction brakes are much more powerful than regen, but regen would help on the race track. Even a 5% reduction in friction braking thanks to regen could benefit overall braking and make the friction brakes last a bit longer on a race track.
Racers disable Tesla's default high regen off throttle on the track since it upsets the balance of the car, could make trailing throttle oversteer worse, etc. Regen belongs on the brake pedal.
I doubt new Roadster would be taken seriously as a track car if Tesla does not properly integrate regen with the brake pedal.
The availability of Sasha's big rotor kit takes away most of the risk for me in ordering Performance Model without PU, so I've changed my order back to PM3 without PU. Sasha's kit is 365 mm rotor diameter, and he says it does not fit (is too large for) the 18 inch wheel, so he needs to change out rotors and caliper brackets when changing to the Aero wheels for road trips. Changing those parts is all a bolt on operation and should not be hard for anyone who works on cars.
It's possible the Tesla PM3 rotor is smaller than Sasha's and will fit both the 18 Aero and 20 inch wheels. In fact that seems the only possible answer if they're shipping the same larger rotors with both wheels. Certainly I hope it's the case that the larger rotors are included with PM3 with no PU, but if not, then I can get the larger rotors from Sasha, or possibly the less large rotors from Tesla or whoever supplies Tesla (very possibly Brembo, who have turned into one of the major OEM brake suppliers.)
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JeffC
Member
Please see my post above. If you want maximum track performance, you must get the 20 inch wheels and 4S tires. However if you're not going on a race track, it may not be necessary. The 18s absolutely will not reach the performance level of the 20s with 4S. That's measurable.
The Long Range has smaller brake rotors than Performance, and that likely radically reduces race track braking performance. Would not matter for most street use, which is never as hard for as long as race track use.
Ride of Performance Model 3 should be about the same as Audi S4. The suspension tuning concepts are generally similar.
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Msjulie
Active Member
I look at it like this - the 20" tire/wheel upgrade just from the store is $4k so why would adding just 1k more give you a completely different brake caliper and rotor with the pedals and carbon fiber bits? Doesn't fit the current pricing model as it seems to be presented to us. More interesting, if Performance needs better brakes it needs them on smaller wheels as much as larger ones; honestly to me the tires on the 18" rims might be considered insufficient for added power though probably only for behavior not appropriate for the street anyway... 
I look at it like this - the 20" tire/wheel upgrade just from the store is $4k so why would adding just 1k more give you a completely different brake caliper and rotor with the pedals and carbon fiber bits? Doesn't fit the current pricing model as it seems to be presented to us. More interesting, if Performance needs better brakes it needs them on smaller wheels as much as larger ones; honestly to me the tires on the 18" rims might be considered insufficient for added power though probably only for behavior not appropriate for the street anyway...
This is not an additional set of tires and rims like the store item, it replaces the stock version, so you need to include that cost in your calculations:
4k -> additional set of 4 rims and tires from store
5k -> upgrade stock wheels and tires to 20", upgrade stock brakes, add pedal covers and spoiler.
Or (price of 20" set - price of base set)+ (price of fancy brakes - cost of stock brakes). Installation cost is mostly identical.
Elon had tweeted that with the amount of regen on AWD, the brakes were not needed unless you have the 20" tires on the track.
Msjulie
Active Member
I realize you don't get to keep the original rims/tires and 4k is a 'store price' - none the less I've done aftermarket brake kits before and what they cost, considering all of the above, doesn't fit with the premium prices Tesla is comfortably able to charge for things - not to me anyway
I realize you don't get to keep the original rims/tires and 4k is a 'store price' - none the less I've done aftermarket brake kits before and what they cost, considering all of the above, doesn't fit with the premium prices Tesla is comfortably able to charge for things - not to me anyway
I'm confused (not unusual), are you saying is 5k too much or too little compared to the 4k store price?
Msjulie
Active Member
I am just speculating that 5k wouldn't mean a completely different caliper but upgraded rims, tires, carbon fiber trim and red coated calipers does more fit my model of what you'd get with the upgrade package. I guess I also believe that different calipers for the P version would be upgraded regardless of color just for vehicle performance characteristics.
JeffC
Member
My post above may be TLDR, but it looks like the major improvement on Model 3 brakes would probably be larger rotors. A rotor upgrade would cost Telsa at most several hundred dollars, but would have large benefits on a race track. Calipers would not need to be physically different. The rotors may be included in the Performance version and may or may not be part of the Performance Upgrade, but so far it's not clear if anyone has confirmed that. The main question is whether the larger rotors fit the 18 inch wheels. or are too large. Mountainpass Performance sells a nice rotor upgrade for $1380. It does not fit the 18s.
Tesla's total cost on the Performance Upgrade option is probably a couple thousand dollars for mostly for the larger wheels and tires. The spoiler is at most low hundreds of dollars in cost; say under $200.
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Msjulie
Active Member
And/or better pads which just that alone can have a profound impact on breaking performance. If they are indeed larger rotors would they fit the smaller rims? No winter package for you? <-- says Tesla. Or is it why there is now a 19" tire/rim package for winter.. hmm
Thanks for sharing your thoughts so ... thoroughly.
I don't consider myself a "racer", but I do spend some time on the tracks (Ridge/Shelton, Pacfiic/Kent, PIR/Portland, ORP/GVOr) and I turn Regen to Low on the track to buy more time before overheating. After doing so, I get 4-6 minutes with P85, 6-8 minutes with P85D, and 8-10 minutes with P100D. With the P100D, I confirmed that taking a 3min break after hitting triple limiter buys roughly a full lap at ORP at full power -- i.e. "idle cooling" (no special air flow or cooling devices) does actually have value.
Another data point...
I don't consider myself a "racer", but I do spend some time on the tracks (Ridge/Shelton, Pacfiic/Kent, PIR/Portland, ORP/GVOr) and I turn Regen to Low on the track to buy more time before overheating. After doing so, I get 4-6 minutes with P85, 6-8 minutes with P85D, and 8-10 minutes with P100D. With the P100D, I confirmed that taking a 3min break after hitting triple limiter buys roughly a full lap at ORP at full power -- i.e. "idle cooling" (no special air flow or cooling devices) does actually have value.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts so ... thoroughly.
Another data point...
I don't consider myself a "racer", but I do spend some time on the tracks (Ridge/Shelton, Pacfiic/Kent, PIR/Portland, ORP/GVOr) and I turn Regen to Low on the track to buy more time before overheating. After doing so, I get 4-6 minutes with P85, 6-8 minutes with P85D, and 8-10 minutes with P100D. With the P100D, I confirmed that taking a 3min break after hitting triple limiter buys roughly a full lap at ORP at full power -- i.e. "idle cooling" (no special air flow or cooling devices) does actually have value.
From what we have seen this won't be a problem with the Model 3 and regen, likely because it doesn't use an inductive motor in the rear. (Which are very hard to keep cool.)
I'm trying to remain optimistic, but am trying not to be hopeful (to avoid disappointment).
JeffC
Member
Model 3 should have a major advantage on the track of being smaller and nearly 1,000 pounds lighter, depending on configurations. Therefore it takes less power to move, heats the motor less, etc. The guy who took his upgraded First Production Model 3 to Laguna Seca got far more laps than with his Model S, for example.
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Petra
Member
Putting Pilot Sport 4S tires on the 18" wheels is also an option, since Michelin makes them in 235/45R18. Also keep in mind that it's possible the 20" PS4S tires that Tesla includes use a harder rubber compound than retail PS4S tires since Tire Rack lists the 20" OEM 'TO Tesla' version with a wear rating of 500 (to maybe improve efficiency at the cost of a little performance?), while the regular retail versions that fit the 18" and 20" wheels show wear ratings of 300.
JeffC
Member
Thanks much Petra. I'd expect that Michelin does not make different versions of the Tesla sized 20 inch 4S, since it would significantly increase their costs to make two versions, but I could be wrong of course. Also the much lower profile 20s probably respond better, even within the same tire model.
Petra
Member
It's not at all uncommon for tire manufacturers to make adjustments to tire designs in OEM applications. Tire Rack lists three versions of the PS4S in 235/35R20 alone: the retail version (wear 300, Eco Focus: Michelin Total performance), the Tesla OE version (wear 500, Eco Focus: Michelin Total performance, with acoustic foam installed inside), and a Porsche OE version (wear 300, no eco focus, no foam). There are even instances where companies will make tires in sizes specific to one model of car--keep in mind, the tread design usually has to be reworked whenever you change the tire's size.
As for handling, the shorter, stiffer sidewall on the 20" tire/wheel package will generally improve turn-in feel and does have a small impact on overall performance but its an advantage that can be complicated by conditions (i.e. in the wet).
Tire manufactures make custom versions all the time. The Michelin MXM4 tire that comes on the 18" Aero wheels is custom.
In fact, there are three 235/45R18 variants: one standard, one for Honda, and one for Tesla. https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Michelin&tireModel=Primacy+MXM4
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