Model 3 Performance feels slow?

[tm1v2]

A few thoughts here...

@gearchruncher is absolutely right about C8 unavailability without paying huge markup (whether for brand new or a barely used flip). A friend is trying to order a C8 Z06 preferably, or at least a regular C8 for a reasonable MSRP-ish price, and it just ain't happening for anyone without a hookup. Either the dealer has an endless waitlist already or they're charging huge ADM, still with a line!

@raptor5244 Interesting about the C8 being less engaging on track. I've never had the opportunity to drive any Corvette truly hard, but in casual driving of C6 and C5 I never found them engaging as a potential daily driver either. I sort of assumed they'd wake up on the track but sounds like maybe not as much as I'd hope. Though the sheer speed they can deliver has to be thrilling on its own... (But yes your ZL1 can deliver that too!)

I liked the *idea* of a Corvette, and you can't argue with their performance, but driving them on regular streets definitely brought to mind the saying that it's more fun to drive a slow car fast than a fast car slow. Though the sound of the new C8 Z06 alone would make daily driving fun.

As for EV performance, yeah at the moment the only *world-beating* EV performer at all speeds is the S Plaid and it's unfortunately a huge, yoke-afflicted Model S, but the M3P is damn fun and engaging in its own right even if it can't keep up at high speeds with powerful ICE cars. And comparing an M3P to a ZL1 is just off, the ZL1 is kitted out with a level of handling upgrades and track focus that Tesla just doesn't offer from the factory. My M3P is a lot more engaging and handles much much better now with lighter wheels + better tires + better dampers + some bushings upgrades. Not saying it compares to a ZL1, I've no idea there, just saying Tesla left a lot on the table, even for a completely street-focused car (I'm not tracking my M3P for the foreseeable future). Whereas a ZL1 is much closer to maximizing that car's potential while still keeping it mostly street friendly. (And I can't imagine the ZL1 is remotely as good at being a relaxing DD too like a Model 3... they're just different cars aimed at very different things from the factory.)

Once someone brings the Plaid drivetrain tech to a smaller, more nimble, more engaging car - like the Model 3 or a future new Roadster - you're going to have a hell of a ridiculously fast and fun performance car. No that car doesn't exist yet but for sure it will come, we all just need some patience, and in the meantime by all means enjoy the ZL1.

Has anybody tried to stuff a Plaid drivetrain into a Model 3 yet?

 

[buckets0fun]

Has anybody tried to stuff a Plaid drivetrain into a Model 3 yet?

$20k USD for a used RDU, untold money for a custom battery to power it.

 

[raptor5244]

A few thoughts here...

@raptor5244 Interesting about the C8 being less engaging on track. I've never had the opportunity to drive any Corvette truly hard, but in casual driving of C6 and C5 I never found them engaging as a potential daily driver either. I sort of assumed they'd wake up on the track but sounds like maybe not as much as I'd hope. Though the sheer speed they can deliver has to be thrilling on its own... (But yes your ZL1 can deliver that too!)

I liked the *idea* of a Corvette, and you can't argue with their performance, but driving them on regular streets definitely brought to mind the saying that it's more fun to drive a slow car fast than a fast car slow. Though the sound of the new C8 Z06 alone would make daily driving fun.

As for EV performance, yeah at the moment the only *world-beating* EV performer at all speeds is the S Plaid and it's unfortunately a huge, yoke-afflicted Model S, but the M3P is damn fun and engaging in its own right even if it can't keep up at high speeds with powerful ICE cars. And comparing an M3P to a ZL1 is just off, the ZL1 is kitted out with a level of handling upgrades and track focus that Tesla just doesn't offer from the factory. My M3P is a lot more engaging and handles much much better now with lighter wheels + better tires + better dampers + some bushings upgrades. Not saying it compares to a ZL1, I've no idea there, just saying Tesla left a lot on the table, even for a completely street-focused car (I'm not tracking my M3P for the foreseeable future). Whereas a ZL1 is much closer to maximizing that car's potential while still keeping it mostly street friendly. (And I can't imagine the ZL1 is remotely as good at being a relaxing DD too like a Model 3... they're just different cars aimed at very different things from the factory.)

Once someone brings the Plaid drivetrain tech to a smaller, more nimble, more engaging car - like the Model 3 or a future new Roadster - you're going to have a hell of a ridiculously fast and fun performance car. No that car doesn't exist yet but for sure it will come, we all just need some patience, and in the meantime by all means enjoy the ZL1.

Has anybody tried to stuff a Plaid drivetrain into a Model 3 yet?

You are right, the limits of the high powered cars are impossible to reach on the street without risking jail time. The C8 on track was actually very good, I just find it a bit subdued. The mid engine layout forced GM to really insulate the engine/exhaust note from the cabin and it is only available with a DCT now. I hear the vert is better since you can drop the rear window a bit and hear the exhaust note better.

I agree, that driving the slow car fast is a bit more fun on the street. I have a Miata ND 6 speed for that and it is a real hoot since you can drop the top and wind out the gears and not risk losing your license.

Don't get me wrong, I like the Tesla Model 3 P, I just tend to get bored with cars pretty quick. My wife still has a M3 SR+ so I still drive one all the time. I believe you when you say the car is much better with lighter wheels and some suspension upgrades. I find the SR+ more "fun" to drive than the M3P. It just feels that much lighter on its feet and still has plenty of torque. You kind of get a mid-engine handling kind of feel from the SR+.

The ZL1 just provides and ton of performance for the money. The SS 1LE is an even better value. I am still a sucker for sound, vibration, rise and fall of the rpm, the kick you get shift through the gears, ability to spin the tires and kick the rear out a bit if I want.

I hope we see some true performance EVs at some point. IMO, the M3P should at least have some sporty seats, mag ride suspension, drive modes, front chin spoiler, maybe flare the wheel wells a bit and put some lightweight forged wheels with wider tires. The interior needs to be a bit sportier as well for a performance trim.

 

[jackmott]

I drove a C8 on track but it did not feel as visceral as the ZL1.

Those sorts of vague subjective feelings are so strongly a function of things like alignment, tire, and even exhaust note. Like if you pretend money doesn't exist there is just no reason you get a ZL1 instead of a C8 to drive around a track. Whenever visceral elements are missing can be fixed with minor tweaks. Money *does* exist though. Turns out.

 

[gearchruncher]

The guys at the road courses complain that the Teslas overheat and can't finish a 20 minute session before needing a charge.

This is not the experience of people here that track their M3P's. They are not all day endurance monsters, but they do not use up a whole battery in 20 minutes nor always overheat, and if you want a single time attack lap, they are amazing. Many courses have charging (even supercharging) nearby, so there are ways to charge one without a diesel generator trailer.

Now, I want a C8 for track use after getting to drive one a few times, so don't get me wrong that I think the M3P is the best car ever, but it's not a disaster on a road course like you hint at.

 

[raptor5244]

This is not the experience of people here that track their M3P's. They are not all day endurance monsters, but they do not use up a whole battery in 20 minutes nor always overheat, and if you want a single time attack lap, they are amazing. Many courses have charging (even supercharging) nearby, so there are ways to charge one without a diesel generator trailer.

Now, I want a C8 for track use after getting to drive one a few times, so don't get me wrong that I think the M3P is the best car ever, but it's not a disaster on a road course like you hint at.

I am not suggesting the M3P is a disaster by any means. The car handles extremely well for its weight. The exit out of the corner in the M3P thanks to the instant torque and AWD is fantastic.

As it relates to track work though you do have to make it work like you said by finding superchargers. I am also not a fan of the power loss as you lose SOC. I am hoping they can figure out how to address that in the future. I have an e-bike and it does the same thing. I can see the voltage drop on the display and the bike just slowly loses more and more torque. The cool thing on the e-bike is that I can carry a spare battery and just swap it out.

I am hopeful we will see true performance EVs. I think Dodge will introduce their e-musclecars next year, which should be interesting to see if they can convert their existing customer base to "e-muscle". They will probably be heavy as usual but at least the low CG of the battery will help.

 

[jackmott]

I am not suggesting the M3P is a disaster by any means. The car handles extremely well for its weight. The exit out of the corner in the M3P thanks to the instant torque and AWD is fantastic.

As it relates to track work though you do have to make it work like you said by finding superchargers. I am also not a fan of the power loss as you lose SOC. I am hoping they can figure out how to address that in the future. I have an e-bike and it does the same thing. I can see the voltage drop on the display and the bike just slowly loses more and more torque. The cool thing on the e-bike is that I can carry a spare battery and just swap it out.

I am hopeful we will see true performance EVs. I think Dodge will introduce their e-musclecars next year, which should be interesting to see if they can convert their existing customer base to "e-muscle". They will probably be heavy as usual but at least the low CG of the battery will help.

The only way to not lose power as state of charge goes down, is to handicap power when SOC is high. It is a fundamental property of how batteries work, there is less "pressure" (voltage) to move the electrons as you discharge, so less power. However it is not so different to a gasoline car, except in reverse (full tank of gas is heavier). Though I suppose the effect is more pronounced here. Solution would just be to start with so much power you hardly care when you lose 25% of it, like the plaid.

 

[gearchruncher]

The only way to not lose power as state of charge goes down, is to handicap power when SOC is high. It is a fundamental property of how batteries work, there is less "pressure" (voltage) to move the electrons as you discharge, so less power. However it is not so different to a gasoline car, except in reverse (full tank of gas is heavier). Though I suppose the effect is more pronounced here. Solution would just be to start with so much power you hardly care when you lose 25% of it, like the plaid.

The Plaid kinda disproves this actually. Previous EV's drop power dramatically as they get to higher RPM, because back EMF functionally reduces your battery voltage. But the Plaid doesn't do this, holding the same power output all the way to redline. Which also means it is not really impacted by battery voltage, particularly at lower RPM. It's not just that it has so much power you don't care, it literally doesn't drop power over SOC.

The next decade for performance EV's is going to be amazing as this tech rolls downhill.

 

[jackmott]

The Plaid kinda disproves this actually.

I think it is just this:

The only way to not lose power as state of charge goes down, is to handicap power when SOC is high

Just kind funny to think of 1,000+ hp as being handicapped

 

[ay221]

I had my Model 3 Performance after 2 years or so. I liked it but I started to miss the engagement and drama you get from performance based ICE vehicles. I am back in a Camaro ZL1, which destroys my Model 3 Performance in all areas except for 0-60mph. The hard AWD launch of the Tesla gets the edge, the ZL1 gets to 60 in about 3.6 seconds. But for about the same money as the Tesla I can trap at 125mph, Recaro seats, HUD, mag ride suspension, drive modes, E-diff, V8 dual exhaust note, sporty interior ability to disable the nannies and have some fun.

I drove a C8 on track but it did not feel as visceral as the ZL1. I am hearing good things about the new Nissan Z, and it comes with a manual. Even Toyota is adding a manual option to the Supra now. While EVs are great for daily drivers I am hoping they keep producing exciting cars for driving enthusiasts.

The new upcoming Cayman electric seems interesting, but yeah no exhaust notes. I think I'm done with 100k vehicles though. At least until inflation takes us there, ha.

 

[raptor5244]

The new upcoming Cayman electric seems interesting, but yeah no exhaust notes. I think I'm done with 100k vehicles though. At least until inflation takes us there, ha.

Yeah, the new GR86 seems like a pretty good value for having some fun on the street and low cost track fun. I am hearing good things about new Nissan Z. 400hp twin turbo, with a manual for under $50k sounds pretty good as well. The supply challenges really sap all the fun out of things right now since you have markups everywhere. For the heck of it, I have a reservation for the ridiculous looking Cybertruck but by the time they call my number it will probably be 2025 and it will probably cost $75k or more.

 

[Ej1749]

Do Teslas become faster over time (not counting software updates or mods)? I test drove a used 2018 Model 3 Performance with 48K miles on it. The car was completely stock and the acceleration was scary fast. Almost violent. I didn't buy this car but found another completely stock 2018 Model 3 Performance with all the same options, including the 20" wheels but this car has 16K miles on it. I bought it sight on seen out of state so I didn't test drive it. Now the car is fast don't get me wrong but the other higher millage Model 3 just felt way faster. I know ICE cars actually get faster over time then after about 60K miles they slow down a bit as thing wear out. How is this for Teslas and what would explain the difference in perceived speed?

Absolutely the alloy size! Battery heat is obviously the biggest factor. I don’t know if you’re still here dude. I’m from the UK. It’s freezing over here at the moment, but my Dad bought a model 3 performance as a daily… I drove his for a bit and was shocked at the acceleration. I then bought one with the English version of the 20inch alloys… MASSIVE difference in the initial 0-20mph. I thought I had been sold just the AWD. However, it had the big red brake callipers, the spoiler and the red line, but only under the dual motor in the software menu. It doesn’t have it on the back. Anyway, I swapped the alloys over to my pops 18s and sure enough, mine pulled way harder off the line.

Watched a video of an American dude running a model Y performance on 18s, 19s 20s and 21s… up to 0.8 seconds difference 0-60.

I had the exact same paranoia and panic when I first got mine haha! I was constantly going out several times per day on different surfaces trying to get that pull. It’s literally freezing here at the moment but we have a hot 41 degree summer coming, so can’t wait to test it out in the heat

 

[gearchruncher]

Watched a video of an American dude running a model Y performance on 18s, 19s 20s and 21s… up to 0.8 seconds difference 0-60.

That video changed the diameter of the tires also, so the test proved nothing about wheel size.

 

[jackmott]

I then bought one with the English version of the 20inch alloys… MASSIVE difference in the initial 0-20mph.

nope. this just isn't the case. there is a difference, but it is very small, hard to even measure. source: math, and empirical experiment.


But if your battery had not been up to temperature, or the state of charge low, when you did that first pull, it would be a lot slower.

 

[gearchruncher]

Also, the 2018 car and the 2023 car are barely the same. There's all sorts of differences, some good, some bad, but it's not surprising they feel really different.

 

[mpgxsvcd]

nope. this just isn't the case. there is a difference, but it is very small, hard to even measure. source: math, and empirical experiment.


But if your battery had not been up to temperature, or the state of charge low, when you did that first pull, it would be a lot slower.

It isn’t hard to measure. It is hard to feel but it is consistent and measurable. I have well over FIFTY passes at 11.39 or faster for the 1/4 mile with 18” wheels being the only difference.

It is consistently just under .1 seconds quicker going from the 20” Uberturbines to the 18” wheels in stock sizes.

I am able to charge at the track so every single pass I did was at 98%-100% with optimal battery temps.

The difference in changing the wheels is real and consistent. All of the data below confirms that.

 

[gearchruncher]

It is consistently just under .1 seconds quicker going from the 20” Uberturbines to the 18” wheels in stock sizes.

This is an amazing data set. But to be clear, you are running 26.3" diameter in 18" and 26.5" in the 20"? That's ~1% different in diameter which does also have an impact.

 

[mpgxsvcd]

This is an amazing data set. But to be clear, you are running 26.3" diameter in 18" and 26.5" in the 20"? That's ~1% different in diameter which does also have an impact.

Yes that is correct on the diameters but no that doesn’t make a significant difference at all.

You have to realize that a 1% difference in HP is at most 5.4 HP if a fully preconditioned Model 3 has 540 HP. It isn’t even really 5.4 HP. The difference in diameter is closer to .8% which would be about 4.32 HP.

On top of that everything you gain below the HP peak at 55 mph you lose after that speed.

Wheel diameter differences of less than 1% are irrelevant. I can adjust the tire diameter by that much just by letting some air out of the tires. I have tried that too and it doesn’t make it faster.

The only things that made my car faster were preconditioning. That gained me ~.15 seconds over using track mode with a 100% stock Model 3 Performance on 20” UberHeavy wheels.

Dropping to the 18s gained me another .08 consistently.

Finally, dropping 155 lbs of interior weight gained me another .1 seconds consistently with the 18” wheels and full preconditioning. My fastest run was also my last run of the season so it doesn’t appear that the car slows down with age.

 

[gearchruncher]

Dropping to the 18s gained me another .08 consistently.

If the 1% diameter isn't relevant, and you believe you can do the math, what about the 18" wheels gained you 0.08?

(FYI, 5HP over 3.2s is 12,000J, and a 26", 5lb ring at 800 RPM is 1,250J)

 

[mpgxsvcd]

If the 1% diameter isn't relevant, and you believe you can do the math, what about the 18" wheels gained you 0.08?

(FYI, 5HP over 3.2s is 12,000J, and a 26", 5lb ring at 800 RPM is 1,250J)

That isn't how this works and your math wasn't even correct even if you were comparing the correct things. You used diameter when you should have used radius there and yes that would have made your second number even lower. In addition your units of measure for that 1,250 number aren't actually Joules. That is Joules per second. You have to multiply that by 3.2 seconds to get Joules. Next, you need to accountant for all four wheels and tires and the weight difference is 10 lbs not 5 lbs. Finally, you used 5 lbs as the force there. That is the weight difference of the wheel not a force or torque being applied to the wheel. That makes no sense at all to use the weight there. You would need to use the torque being applied to the wheel there. However, none of that matters because your second number doesn't represent anything relevant to what we are talking about.

It appears that you are trying to calculate the energy at at constant speed for the wheel in that second part. I am not sure why you think that is relevant? That isn't going to tell you anything about acceleration. Your analogy just isn't correct at all.

Watch a few minutes of the video at the link below. This explains moment of inertia and why it is so important when compared to gearing. Changing the tire diameter is the exact same thing as changing the gearing. Acceleration varies directly with the gear ratio if torque at the source is constant. However, moment of inertia varies with the SQAURE of radius as you can see in the video.

You asked why changing the wheel diameter matters so much. It is because I am varying the moment of inertia by the SQUARE of the radius. If you vary the tire size by .2 inches it affects acceleration LINEARLY with that radius change if the source torque is constant.

In the video Jason from Engineering Explained shows how moment of inertia is reduced by 80% by going with the smaller and lighter wheels. When you change the tire diameter you affect acceleration by .8% at most with the tires I have. Reducing the moment of inertia is orders of magnitude more affective than changing the gear ratio by only .8%.

I know that a lot of people swear that changing tire diameter affects acceleration significantly. In real world tire size differences it just simply doesn't matter. Reducing rotational mass especially in a car without a flywheel is so much more important.

I have shown you exactly why rotational mass is so important with both the equations and with actual data from controlled tests. I am not sure what else I can do to convince you that changing to smaller and lighter wheels works.