Model 3 Performance...Plaid [speculation]

[Knightshade]

Weird, when I reference your own source it supports my argument.

No, it does not.

Let me remind you of "your" argument:

At every other speed besides from a dead stop, the Tesla loses the "race."

And yet using Car and Driver measured data--- the Tesla wins the race multiple times NOT from a dead stop.

5-60, 30-50, and 50-70--- the Tesla wins all of them, and comfortably.

So your argument is factually wrong.

. It clearly makes more power.

yes, it does.

While also carrying a thousand pounds extra weight

Which is why it takes so long to get to the finish line in comparison.

It seems you may not be experienced with fast cars

ROTFL

On the contrary- I'm the one who understands which guy actually wins in a race.

, since you don't understand the implications of a car pulling on another from a roll. Reaction time is divorced from trap speed.

But the video you posted was based entirely on reaction time because it was "video 2 cars against each other with the 'start' being entirely based on human reaction times"

Carwow is the same guys who had different drivers in different Tesla suggest a non-P AWD Model 3 pulling on a P.

Their lack of actual calibrated measuring and relying on human reactions is...not useful.

the car making more power will always pull on the car making less power once they get moving - which the BMW does every time.

Except, no, it does not. Because it weighs 1000 pounds more

Tested: 2022 BMW i4 M50 Is an EV M3

The new electric 4-series outruns an M3 Competition to 60 mph, and it costs less.

www.caranddriver.com

BMW takes 1.5 seconds to go from 30-50 (Spoiler: starting at 30 means it's already moving)
BMW takes 2.0 seconds to go from 50-70 (again- it's already moving here)

Tested: 2019 Tesla Model 3 Performance Hits 60 in 3.1 Seconds

Tesla's smallest sedan is amusing with more power and better handling.

www.caranddriver.com

Tesla Model 3P takes 1.1 seconds to go 30-50 (spoiler: that's faster than the BMW from a roll)
Tesla Model 3P takes 1.7 seconds to go 50-70 (spoiler: that's also faster than the BMW from a roll)



0-60
5-60 rolling starting
30-50 rolling
50-70 rolling
1/4 mile


The Tesla gets there quicker than the BMW in every case. Including the ones from a roll.


"Makes more power but ends up losing every race" is not a great marketing slogan, but it's what BMW seems to be going with here.

Again- when they build a ground up EV that isn't 25% heavier than it needs to be they might have something. The i4 ain't it.

 

[paradoxical]

So how come the Tesla loses to 0-100mph, 110mph, 120mph, and 130mph? How come it's slower 60-100? 80-120?

 

[Sam1]

So how come the Tesla loses to 0-100mph, 110mph, 120mph, and 130mph? How come it's slower 60-100? 80-120?

You're new here, so this is the one tip I'll give you. This is the best way to avoid arguing with people who will spend 6 hours arguing a point that can be factually proven incorrect.

 

[SomeJoe7777]

So how come the Tesla loses to 0-100mph, 110mph, 120mph, and 130mph? How come it's slower 60-100? 80-120?

You're new here, so this is the one tip I'll give you. This is the best way to avoid arguing with people who will spend 6 hours arguing a point that can be factually proven incorrect.

View attachment 819723

Yep, this is the method I use. Works very well.

 

[Knightshade]

So how come the Tesla loses to 0-100mph, 110mph, 120mph, and 130mph? How come it's slower 60-100? 80-120?

Can you show me where it loses in all those cases?

The only one there's been any cite for was specifically 0-100. What's even funnier is- the C&D data predates the power updates Tesla pushed out to the P. That's why they clocked 11.6 in the 1/4 while it routinely puts down 11.3x now, so a retest would likely show the Tesla winning even in the one case you found it didn't previously.


In contrast the Tesla wins in every other case C&D testing- including multiple ones starting from a speed other than zero.


Which prompts me to ask if you're now walking back your original, debunked, claim of "At every other speed besides from a dead stop, the Tesla loses"?


Because it objectively does not, as proven in C&Ds testing.

 

[Knightshade]

WOW - Plaid model 3? How about a Model 3 Performance that has uniqueness besides performance and brakes? BMW has the M, Mercedes has AMG, Mini has JCW and Acura has the Type-S.

My wish list:
1) Wheel options (19" with 235/40/19 fronts and 265/40/19 rears - 20" wheels are not ideal for track or best handling).
2) Sport seats with more bolsters
3) unique steering wheel
4) different front and rear bumpers
5) HUD
6) Air/magnetic suspension similar to the S/Plaid thats adjustable.
7) Better brakes and get 0-60 in the mid 2-secs.

Call it the Model 3PM or 3PR (Mars or Rocket edition)

Those are all perfect examples of exactly the kind of added complexity Elon specifically says they do NOT want to add in the video

They'd much prefer to increase total vehicle output, simplest possible supply chain and MFG complexity, and let the aftermarket figure out offerings like additional wheels and brake upgrades.

Even the garage opener isn't done at the factory anymore.

 

[heavyD]

The Tesla seems to have an initial advantage of more instant torque but the BMW looks to have considerably more top end power. Hard to refute that. The M3P runs out of steam after the quarter mile.

 

[Evpowerdan]

Those are all perfect examples of exactly the kind of added complexity Elon specifically says they do NOT want to add in the video

They'd much prefer to increase total vehicle output, simplest possible supply chain and MFG complexity, and let the aftermarket figure out offerings like additional wheels and brake upgrades.

Even the garage opener isn't done at the factory anymore.

Agree - we can all wish!

No other mfg has a payable performance upgrade like Tesla for the Model 3 and Y Long range - $2k gets you a half of second quicker from 0-60 and better 8th and 1/4 mile times. That would take an enormous amount of $$$$ for a ICE vehicle.

Tesla's Focus is on pumping out vehicles right now and delivering a quality product. Tesla is ramping production faster than the other comps in the USA. Plus - the super charging network is way ahead of the others.

 

[terranx]

So how come the Tesla loses to 0-100mph, 110mph, 120mph, and 130mph? How come it's slower 60-100? 80-120?

Combo of Tesla using rather aggressive gear ratios to bring the 0-60 down and the power diving of a cliff at higher RPMs.

The i4 can hold onto its peak power to a bit over 200 km/h, while the M3P starts to lose power from 100km/h or so.

I think the M3P is overall a better car, but in this regard, BMW has it beat.

Last I read they actually removed the (barely) lowered suspension on the P, which would allow them reduced complexity by not having 2 different suspension setups.

Still a different part number front and rear. Confirmed by looking under my car. January 2022 build

 

[paradoxical]

Combo of Tesla using rather aggressive gear ratios to bring the 0-60 down and the power diving of a cliff at higher RPMs.

The i4 can hold onto its peak power to a bit over 200 km/h, while the M3P starts to lose power from 100km/h or so.

I think the M3P is overall a better car, but in this regard, BMW has it beat.

This is exactly my point, and I don't get why it's so wrong for us Model 3 owners to desire more power. Is it really a crime to voice a personal desire to go faster? I don't really care if Lord Musk's feelings get hurt, I'll enjoy my Model 3 until there is a better package and then either upgrade to a faster one or jump ship.

I actually didn't realize the M3 started to lose power so quickly, the performance gap between the i4 and M3 will widen significantly as speeds increase.

 

[terranx]

This is exactly my point, and I don't get why it's so wrong for us Model 3 owners to desire more power. Is it really a crime to voice a personal desire to go faster? I don't really care if Lord Musk's feelings get hurt, I'll enjoy my Model 3 until there is a better package and then either upgrade to a faster one or jump ship.

I actually didn't realize the M3 started to lose power so quickly, the performance gap between the i4 and M3 will widen significantly as speeds increase.

I agree. I would love a model 3 plaid. Or a proper M EV (the i4 doesn't really qualify). The power drop at higher speeds is my biggest complaint coming from an ICE vehicle

 

[Knightshade]

This is exactly my point, and I don't get why it's so wrong for us Model 3 owners to desire more power. Is it really a crime to voice a personal desire to go faster?

No, but it should be one to repeatedly claim the BMW is faster from any starting speed above 0 when that's outright false

I actually didn't realize the M3 started to lose power so quickly, the performance gap between the i4 and M3 will widen significantly as speeds increase.

As pointed out, the Tesla still gets to the end of the 1/4 mile before the BMW does.

But by all means, for the massive amount of driving I totally believe you actually do above 120 mph, go BMW all the way! I mean, it's slower in 99.99% of all legal driving outside Germany, but you do you!

The power drop at higher speeds is my biggest complaint coming from an ICE vehicle

FWIW same was true of the Performance Model S for years and years.

The Plaid solved that- but that's not coming to the 3 as Elon has made clear.

 

[terranx]

The Plaid solved that- but that's not coming to the 3 as Elon has made clear.

If there’s one thing consistent with Elon, his word is meaningless. If he decides Tesla is being left behind in this segment, they’ll probably do some sort of update. My suspicion is they will eventually release some variant that has *one* of the plaid motors in the back. It would require minimal reeingineering on their part (the tear downs show each individual motor is already quite similar to the model 3 motor) and the end result would be them again leaving their competition behind. Whether they call it a model 3 plaid or something else doesn’t really matter.

 

[Knightshade]

If there’s one thing consistent with Elon, his word is meaningless. If he decides Tesla is being left behind in this segment, they’ll probably do some sort of update. My suspicion is they will eventually release some variant that has *one* of the plaid motors in the back. It would require minimal reeingineering on their part (the tear downs show each individual motor is already quite similar to the model 3 motor) and the end result would be them again leaving their competition behind. Whether they call it a model 3 plaid or something else doesn’t really matter.

I don't know that just the motor is sufficient, is there any evidence the "standard" LR battery and wiring in the 3 is capable of the higher sustained output needed?

If it is (of which I'm dubious) then I agree it's a much better possibility years from now when there's any 'real' competition than if they had to rework multiple different systems just for that.

 

[Hooked]

Probably not is my guess.

 

[mpgxsvcd]

So how come the Tesla loses to 0-100mph, 110mph, 120mph, and 130mph? How come it's slower 60-100? 80-120?

There is only one BMW I4 M50 on Dragy with respectable times so we will have to use that one for comparison sake.

My 2022 Tesla Model 3 Performance was stock on 20” UberHeavy wheels when I posted these times. I wasn’t particularly fast for stock either. There are faster stock Model 3s on 20” Uberturbine wheels than mine but not by much. My times are indicative of what a typical stock 2022 Model 3 Performance will do.

I hit the 1/8 in 7.30 @ 96.61. The BMW I4 did the 1/8 in 7.50 @ 95.85. However, I took 4.13 seconds to do the next 1/8 and he took 4.09 seconds to do the 2nd 1/8. He reaches 120.22 mph by the 1/4. I was at a lowly 117.67 mph.

Yes, certainly the BMW will pull harder than a stock Model 3 from 95+ mph. However, if you start comparing some of the faster model 3s with smaller and lighter wheels you will see that some of those cars are doing the 2nd 1/8 in the exact same 4.09 seconds that the BMW did.

Honestly, the BMW doesn’t pull that much harder even up to 100 mph. It doesn’t really start to pull a lot harder until after 100 mph if the race starts from a dig.

Tesla throttle response is some of the best in the business. If you properly precondition a model 3 it will be MUCH FASTER than if you don’t. That and SOC are typically why CarWow’s testing always shows ridiculously slow times for the Tesla Model 3 Performance.

Roll racing from 35 mph the Tesla is going to win if it is setup properly for SOC and it is preconditioned. The Model 3 roll ins from 35 mph are absolutely brutal. The BMW doesn’t hit as hard down low.

From 60+ mph the BMW will lose the initial jump but it will start to catch up once the speed builds especially over 100 mph.

The BMW certainly has more power but it has a stupid amount of weight as well. It really isn’t as fast as you would think it would be.

 

[terranx]

I don't know that just the motor is sufficient, is there any evidence the "standard" LR battery and wiring in the 3 is capable of the higher sustained output needed?

If it is (of which I'm dubious) then I agree it's a much better possibility years from now when there's any 'real' competition than if they had to rework multiple different systems just for that.

As far as I’m aware, M3Ps do reasonably well in track scenarios, which is going to generally be harder on the car than just a high speed run. They wouldn’t necessarily have to allow more current. Just allow it to hold that max current for longer.

The M3Ps abroad with LG batteries actually have a 100A greater current limit to make up for the voltage sag inherent to those batteries, so it does seem there is some headroom left on the table.

 

[EVolv3d]

There's no denying that the motor/inverter design would yield an improvement in the M3P's performance & top-end power.

We know that the M3P is capable of a bit more power as we've seen that the MYP (with a similar hardware configuration) has considerably more top-end. The MYP is rated at 16kW higher (393kW vs 377kW) and dynos at ~20whp more.

M3P (dotted) vs MYP (solid) dyno:

However, I believe the battery should be upgraded for optimal Plaid-like results. The upgraded motor/inverter design is only part of the equation. The battery/BMS would need to be capable of supplying enough power to overcome BEMF at higher motor speeds if you want to keep a flat power curve like the Plaid has. As terranx mentioned, the voltage sag, cell type/chemistry, battery size/configuration, voltage, amperage, etc. all come into play. The higher the pack voltage, the easier it is to maintain power at higher motor speeds. You can up the current, but you'll be fighting heat and will need better cooling.

There are a lot of things that help the Plaid deliver power at higher speeds compared to the M3P.

• Motor/Inverter combo (stronger magnets, inline/star shaped laminates, controller tuning, etc.)
• Battery/BMS design: higher power output (voltage & amperage)
• Lower final drive (& larger wheel/tire): The 7.5:1 FD (vs 9.04:1) helps provide better top-end ("sacrificing" low-end) and will keep the motor in a more efficient range at higher speeds (lower motor RPM at higher wheel speeds). This isn't an issue since the Plaid's tri-motor setup provides all the torque it can possibly use being traction limited by the tires.

The carbon-fiber wrapped rotor isn't necessary as it's primary purpose is to hold things together at higher motor speeds (18-20k rpm or 200+ mph).

 

[santua]

In all honesty, I would love the Model 3 to be able to pull a bit more at the top. It would be nice if we could get it through an update, but I would be a customer for a Plaid version. We have an MS Plaid and it is so much more enjoyable on the highway in comparison to the M3P.

 

[afadeev]

In all honesty, I would love the Model 3 to be able to pull a bit more at the top. It would be nice if we could get it through an update

For free - sure.
For $$, details would matter.
I can't say that TM3P misses much in acceleration either on the back roads or the highways. On the other hand, there is no such thing as too much HP....

but I would be a customer for a Plaid version.

I might do them same, if the increment was another $5-10K.
Much more than that, and the novelty starts wearing off.

However, since Elon has slammed the door on Plaid, this is all purely hypothetical.

We have an MS Plaid and it is so much more enjoyable on the highway in comparison to the M3P.

MS is a better highway cruiser due to longer wheel base and softer suspension.
TM3 is more agile and handles better, but is also appreciably noisier and a touch less stable on the highway.

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