Here is the M3P German forum waiting room. Open in a Chrome browser for the translate to English option. Model 3 Performance -- Bestellung und vorgesehene Auslieferung in Q2/2022
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Model 3 Performance Waiting Room
- Thread starter seadog
- Start date
At least someone can get the latest data now. We still seem to have references to very old data and a lot of assumptions being based on that.
You need to follow these threads if you want to see the data:
Model 3/Y Battery Wiki: [Wiki] Model 3 / Model Y - Batteriewiki / Akkuwiki
Model 3/Y Battery Discussion [Diskussion] Model 3 / Model Y - Batterie / Akku
Model 3/Y Technical changes/details Wiki: [Wiki] Model 3 / Model Y - Technische Veränderungen / Details
Model 3/Y Technical changes discussion: [Diskussion] Model 3 / Model Y - Technische Veränderungen
Of course use google translate if you can't speak German.
As for how old is all the data I have been referring to - it is very recent, some of the analysis and posts are only a few days old....not 'very' old.
The relevant data and conclusions have been accumulating ever since the Model Y performance came out from Giga Berlin......although they have been analysing the batteries and performance for some time from different models.
eivissa (translated name of ibiza) is the guy's posts you want to watch.
Like it or lump it, the cars will come with the LG battery and will have less performance capability on anything other than 100% SOC.
As I said it's not all bad for the LG battery - it has it's plus points.
The majority of the performance difference comes under more ideal conditions...ie maximum possible potential.
When the conditions are less than ideal the difference between the Pan and LG is much smaller and would be hardly detectable to the driver.
A scenario where you will feel the difference would be at a drag strip, with the battery fully warmed up the panasonic variant will run a bit faster 0-60 & 1/4 mile time but more notably you will feel a greater shove into the seat on initial acceleration.
A scenario where you are unlikely to feel the difference would be the first run of a full pull from say traffic lights, where you haven't been driving the car hard previously and therefore battery is not hot....under this scenario the difference between the Pan and LG is likely to be only 10-15KW, even at 70% SOC
Latest charts on output power capability at different temperatures (posted 3 days ago)
Hot Battery (50c):
Warm Battery (30c)
Cold Battery (15c)
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The gap seems to have reduced a lot since those earlier graphs. Must be some optimisation going on by Tesla.
The previous (older) chart only showed the ideal condition of a hot battery 50c.
The gap has unfortunately stayed the same, the only real difference in this (hot battery) chart is the Y axis scale starts from 0 (instead of 100 on the older chart) - so the gap visually looks smaller. Also the extrapolated figures on the pan battery above the caped max output of 430kw have been removed and the output flatlined...as it would be in reality due to the BMS capping it.
The charts are based on live data and are being tweaked over time, but unless there is an update released by Tesla to increase the discharge power then there isn't going to be a sudden change in what we are seeing. There have been no recent optimisations to the discharge curve by Tesla from what I have seen on the forums.
What can be seen though in these newer charts, is the performance gap is much less at less than ideal battery temperatures (30c and 15c)
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There's definitely differences. The 5L is higher in places than it was on the previous one. I checked again just now and it is higher like at 70% it is at 380kw on the original and 390kw on the new one.
Think you need to look again.....it was ~385kw at 70% on older chart and is still at ~385Kw on the newer chart.
What has moved is the 'LR Boost' line, which was in a different place on the old chart. It's now at 385KW.
The charts are based on live data and are being tweaked over time, but unless there is an update released by Tesla to increase the discharge power then there isn't going to be a sudden change in what we are seeing. There have been no recent optimisations to the discharge curve by Tesla for the LG E5LD from what I have seen on the forums.
The max power of the M3P is 377kW. The lines are in the wrong position, possibly the power of each motor was just added together without understanding they don't peak at the same place. The 2nd line looks close to the one for the performance.
This is also interesting real world data
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The data has certainly not come from just adding the power of the motors together - they are more than aware the maximum power output of the motors comes at different speeds and the total combined output varies over speed/time. The maximum (peak) output of the M3P is not 377KW, its entirely limited by the battery, even on the panasonic, to a peak of 430KW - this can be seen if you have a data logger such as scan my Tesla.
That model 3, unsurprisingly, has the Panasonic battery - the pan battery is in all M3P's shipped to Europe up until March 2022. As previously mentioned there are some 'unicorn' models that were shipped in Q1 2022 which have the pan battery, ryzen cpu and 3D6 motor. They were the last of the pan battery M3P's - and one of the ones I really wish I was getting!
No M3P's have been delivered in Europe with the LG battery yet - all the ones on the current ships coming over from China have the LG battery though, that is pretty much certain, as the CoC's for all the EU deliveries coming over for June deliveries are showing they have the LG E5LD.
In addition I expect such a dragy time to have been done with lighter weight, probably 18" wheels.
It seems then we are speculating on an M3P that doesn't yet exist here. Maybe when they do start to make an appearance we will get more info.
Where is the info about the motors? I've not seen any references to peak power being anywhere near that!
As i've said before - everything is based on the LG battery in the Model Y performance. The exact same battery that is now going to be in the M3P, with the same drivetrain. There is some speculation but it is unlikely there will be any difference to the discharge profile of the LG battery on the M3P than that of the MYP.
This is not to say there won't be an update released further down the road that will give some more discharge power - some more is possible, a lot more is not as I strongly believe all the limitations of the LG battery vs the Pan battery stem from the inherent higher internal resistance of the individual cells (as a result of the NCM chemistry vs NCA) which is a LOT higher on the LG cells than the Pan cells - this higher IR limits maximum discharge and charge power.....it's the reason why they can't charge at 250KW sustained and the reason why they can't discharge at much over 400KW.
The real peak performance of the Pan battery is actually nearer 450KW, but it has been capped at 430KW....
Tesla were talking about releasing an acceleration boost for the M3P, like they have for the M3LR - and I believe this was due to the large amount of headroom in the Pan battery (up to 450KW). Now they have been forced to switch Europe production to the LG battery (due to costs, material supply constraints etc etc), that will never happen - at least for Europe anyway.....they will never release a 'boost' for the M3P for Europe as it won't work on LG battery models and will annoy a lot of people with them if they only released it for older Pan M3P's.
NCMA you mean? (NCM is the 5C I believe).
I'm also wondering the real world difference. If we aren't seeing difference in performance even with comparisons between older 3d1 and 3d6 where the LG battery would be more than enough to power then there seems to be another limitation in the system somewhere, like software or grip etc. Maybe we would only see the differences at very not legal speeds.
Nope NCM (or NMC)....It was rumoured that the 5L was going to be 82 kWh NCMA, but it ended up 79 kWh NCM.
Nothing in the documentation for the E5LD battery indicates it is NCMA - although it's still not 100% certain at this point, those in the know have accepted it as still being NCM.
The performance difference will be at the lower speeds, primarily from a standstill, where peak power matters the most, and of which the battery will be the primary limiting factor.
In the real world, it will all just depend on SOC and battery temperature. If you were at 80% in a LG config vs the same 80% in a Pan config.....but you only have just 'warm' batteries rather than hot - then the difference is small and probably just 0.1s diff in a 0-60...i.e. barely, if at all, perceivable.
Interesting so there is some discrepancy here with reported information. This should be dug into more. I’m also certain we will see carwow and the like doing their drag races with the new vehicle.
Yeah at some point i'm sure they will have a newer M3P on test - although carwow are absolutely useless when it comes to EV's.....they don't warm the battery up, never care or state what the SOC was. They expect them to just go like a petrol car and not worry about how much is in the 'tank'!
As a side note to the real world performance - the LG battery warms up much faster than the Panasonic, and tends to stay hotter - it's IR inefficiency actually helps it here. You can see this in charging logs on Bjørn Nyland youtube channel where he does charging comparisons between the LG E5LD and Pan 3L and even the older Pan 3/3C - with the LG reaching 50-60c much quicker due to internal power losses.
This in the real world means an LG battery is likely to be notably hotter than a Pan battery in normal daily driving - so when you do put your foot down I expect the difference between the 2 has been completely negated. This difference will also be exagerated in winter months, to the point you will probably find an LG car generally performs better under normal driving conditions........as i say there are plus points to the LG battery, and the Pan only wins by a notable margin under pre-conditioned race conditions.
As a downside to this i expect the LG cars to overheat and reduce power a lot sooner than Pan cars - when on a race track. Unless Tesla have beefed up the cooling (but none of the WLTP change data, which lists all major components that have been changed since the last model, show a change in the cooler config for the new M3P with LG battery vs the outgoing one with the Pan)
I still think it will do 3.1 seconds 0-60 even when not at exactly 100% soc. especially when you are told not to charge to 100%.
This is the lead performance model 3 and Tesla won't want to reduce the 0-60 time. It's fine reducing the 0-60 time for the Rear wheel drive model, but I doubt they would want to reduce the 0-60 time for the performance model.
They also can't say it does 0-60 in 3.1 seconds if it doesn't . Otherwise you may as well just say it does 0-60 in 2 seconds if it doesn't have to be accurate
This is the lead performance model 3 and Tesla won't want to reduce the 0-60 time. It's fine reducing the 0-60 time for the Rear wheel drive model, but I doubt they would want to reduce the 0-60 time for the performance model.
They also can't say it does 0-60 in 3.1 seconds if it doesn't . Otherwise you may as well just say it does 0-60 in 2 seconds if it doesn't have to be accurate
I'm sure it will be possible to get a 0-60 time in 3.1 seconds (albeit only at certain SOC levels). But the old one can beat that time, and other times may be more affected (e.g. 0-100 or 1/4 mile).
I expect, it will be able to do 3.1, on the right surface, at nearly 100% SOC, with the battery very hot......and this will be what Tesla will say if people start moaning....it's a bit like how the Model S Plaid can do 1.98 0-60 with the caveat it needs a 'specially prepared surface', and battery preconditioned for 30 minutes or so in 'drag mode'.
The previous M3P's could hit 3.1 seconds (rollout subtracted) under somewhat normal conditions, although they did require a hot battery to do so. They did this at 75%+ SOC's and were very consistent with their times barely shifting until SOC started dropping below 75% or so.
As for the LG M3P, unless there is some dramatic change in the discharge curve from that of the MYP then I think it will struggle to get to 3.1 and I expect it will never be able to do so unless the SOC is above 90%, the battery very hot and all other conditions are perfect.
Just got another Tesla text, this time with the vin and reg number
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