Model 3 Premium Package is a STEAL (By Tesla standards)

[Phrixotrichus]

Considering how the chassis used in modern cars is specifically engineered around the ICE drive train and interior components I don't think it's nearly as trivial as you make it out to be to jam the battery on the bottom frame of the car.

for vw and Mercedes I know for sure it is. And since bmw uses a similar modular system I'd be very surprised if they'd have problems there.

 

[voip-ninja]

for vw and Mercedes I know for sure it is. And since bmw uses a similar modular system I'd be very surprised if they'd have problems there.

According to this article VW designed a new modular chassis specifically for EV application. It's not indicated anywhere in the article that this chassis was just a repurposed chassis from VWs existing architecture.

VW Outlines Production Plans For EVs Built On A New Platform At Its German Plants

This is what the VW MEV chassis looks like;

And this is what the "normal" MQB7 chassis for the VW Golf looks like.

 

[Phrixotrichus]

According to this article VW designed a new modular chassis specifically for EV application. It's not indicated anywhere in the article that this chassis was just a repurposed chassis from VWs existing architecture.

VW Outlines Production Plans For EVs Built On A New Platform At Its German Plants

This is what the VW MEV chassis looks like;

And this is what the "normal" MQB7 chassis for the VW Golf looks like.

The E Golf uses the MBQ system. They even get produced on the same lines as the normal ones.

What you have here is another variant of that the MEB which is supposed to be the future ev platform for vw...because they for some reason also want to go the extra-brand ev route....

 

[voip-ninja]

The E Golf uses the MBQ system. They even get produced on the same lines as the normal ones.

What you have here is another variant of that the MEB which is supposed to be the future ev platform for vw...because they for some reason also want to go the extra-brand ev route....

I guess I will have to take your word for it as I can't find any good information about the relationship between the two platforms or how close they are.

This is an even better picture of MBQ, you can see from the frame design and spots for seating components and chassis pan thickness that it would not be trivial to introduce an 800 lb battery that is typically 6 or more centimeters thick. In any event I don't claim to be an expert so I'll just let it go at this time.

 

[Phrixotrichus]

This is an even better picture of MBQ, you can see from the frame design and spots for seating components and chassis pan thickness that it would not be trivial to introduce an 800 lb battery that is typically 6 or more centimeters thick.

The e-golf already did it....if you check you`ll find that it uses the usual mbq. The new MEB just offers even more space for higher capacity batteries.

 

[MP3Mike]

The e-golf already did it....

I thought the eGolf had the battery mainly under the rear seats, and in the "drive shaft/exhaust tunnel", not under the floor pan.

 

[voip-ninja]

I thought the eGolf had the battery mainly under the rear seats, and in the "drive shaft/exhaust tunnel", not under the floor pan.

Yeah, I don't know what he's talking about either. The Tesla and most other purpose built EVs use the footprint of the vehicle to get the most battery in the smallest dimensional space and design it so that it's more serviceable if the entire battery or a portion of the battery requires replacement.

By comparison this is what the Golf E does which is clearly shoehorn the batteries into all the places the ICE components normally go, which is exactly what I initially asserted they were doing and was then refuted over and over again about it.

Also keep in mind that e-Golf design gives a "whopping" 24 kWh of capacity and takes up all that space vs. the 50 or 75 kWh that Tesla is able to do in an only slightly larger car.

 

[Phrixotrichus]

I re checked and you guys were right all along. all manufacturers have extra platforms for their evs the moment they go above a certain mileage. But those seem to be finished and ready for production for all brands at least.....
my bad

 

[internalaudit]

VW, Mercedes and BMW all use a modular basis and they can ,just like vw or tesla, place their battery on the bottom of the car without a lot of re-engineering. The only thing the classic manufacturers are actually behind in is production capacity for batteries, but that`s what they have join-ventures with samsung and co for.

So again, no, you`re grossly underestimating the classic premium brands.
All that`s been missing for the classic manufacturers to jump on the ev bandwagon is the will to abandon their moneyprinting diesel engines. It´s not like they couldn`t have, they didn`t want to....until china started to really force them and Tesla reached a certain size.

What I really don`t understand though is why bmw, audi and mercedes went the extra-brand route for their evs so far. Guess they want to make a premium-premium with a higher margin while keeping their classic bread and butter models around without cannibalizing their share.

Who will get a big problem though are all "less financially stable" non-premium-manufacturers. Those will have a BIG problem getting the neccessary funds to switch.

Is it really gasoline/diesel engines that are their bread and butter or are they just waiting for battery and drive train unit technology to evolve? Margins on ICE vehicles are fatter probably because the batteries currently costs so much more than the engines?

Do they make so much money in supplying engine components for post-warranty repair work or would they be better of making more reliable BEVs and capturing even more market share? For parts, wouldn't the OEM be making most of the money anyway?

I'd like for Tesla to survive but I'd also like other makers to electrify because having just one player will never do consumers any justice.

 

[Twiglett]

Is it really gasoline/diesel engines that are their bread and butter or are they just waiting for battery and drive train unit technology to evolve? Margins on ICE vehicles are fatter probably because the batteries currently costs so much more than the engines?

Do they make so much money in supplying engine components for post-warranty repair work or would they be better of making more reliable BEVs and capturing even more market share? For parts, wouldn't the OEM be making most of the money anyway?

I'd like for Tesla to survive but I'd also like other makers to electrify because having just one player will never do consumers any justice.

I have to agree with you in that the other makers need to stick around.
However I don't think they are waiting for anything other than to be forced into moving.
Most of them are acting like the "establishment" when faced with any distruption - they pretend it isn't real.
Their problem is that they have only just realized (in the last 4-6 months) how far behind they really are, so now they're releasing plans and concepts as fast as they can. Its only been very recently that they've realized that they will need a whole bunch of batteries and have started to make proper plans to get there.
It is very telling that the unions for both BMW and MB workers are now pressing hard to make sure the impending decimation of engine/gearbox related workers is managed properly. It means the unions have realized what is about to happen before the companies have.
The biggest hurdle BMW et al have now is to sell their future true BEV cars in direct competition with their own ICE versions - which is something they will have to do in order to compete. If they don't they will lose more and more market share.
We live in exciting times and I can't wait to see how they respond.

 

[internalaudit]

I have to agree with you in that the other makers need to stick around.
However I don't think they are waiting for anything other than to be forced into moving.
Most of them are acting like the "establishment" when faced with any distruption - they pretend it isn't real.
Their problem is that they have only just realized (in the last 4-6 months) how far behind they really are, so now they're releasing plans and concepts as fast as they can. Its only been very recently that they've realized that they will need a whole bunch of batteries and have started to make proper plans to get there.
It is very telling that the unions for both BMW and MB workers are now pressing hard to make sure the impending decimation of engine/gearbox related workers is managed properly. It means the unions have realized what is about to happen before the companies have.
The biggest hurdle BMW et al have now is to sell their future true BEV cars in direct competition with their own ICE versions - which is something they will have to do in order to compete. If they don't they will lose more and more market share.
We live in exciting times and I can't wait to see how they respond.

It's making sense to me know with your post as well as Phrixotrichus'. The Germans are creating entirely new EV divisions most likely due to union pressures. Labor Unions could be demanding a certain number of shifts with little care for actual production numbers.

Forgot all about the unions.

 

[Foxhound199]

We seem to have drifted quite far from the title of the thread. I just wanted to add that while you may or may not like what's in the PUP package for the price, it's very refreshing to know exactly what you're going to pay and not to have to deal with a bunch of hidden upgrade costs jumping out at you like with the traditional dealer model. I'm talking weird, random upgrades buried deep in the options list that you never would have considered, yet mysteriously every car on the lot seems to have.

 

[internalaudit]

^ We might get one --> heated steering wheel.

Not a priority because it isn't winter yet.